Which would you buy: Credo 60 or Aptus II 12 R?

[rogerxnz]

I have an Aptus 75 (33MP) back and a Hasselblad V system including a Flexbody, which I use a lot. I can sell/trade my A75 back for either a new Credo 60 (60MP) or a slightly used Aptus II 12 R (80MP in a sensor rotating mount). The Aptus II 12 R option is about USD3,500 cheaper.

I shoot mainly landscapes in the bush in New Zealand. I am an amateur (but also a lawyer!). My biggest problem with my present setup is getting the focus right and, sometimes, when I use the tilt function on the Flexbody, it can take several attempts before I am satisfied.

I have had a go with the in-back LiveView feature of the Credo but never seen an Aptus II which I know does not have the same feature (but does if tethered, which I wish to avoid). In daylight, outdoors, LiveView on the Credo gives useable results if you put a ND filter over the lens and use a LCDVF loupe. I hope that LiveView on the Credo would allow me to avoid taking off the back to put on the viewfinder to refocus and then putting the back on again to take the shot. I know it will still be quite a pain to crouch down and look up at the LCD screen if the back is tilted backwards (as it usually is) on the Flexbody on a tripod. If I have to tether the back to a laptop, the Credo would be better as its LiveView is better and in color.

So which would you choose? The higher resolution back the A II 12 R is cheaper significantly, even if I had to buy a MacBook Air as well, and it has the rotating sensor. The Credo has a brighter LCD screen and LiveView in the back.

Help, please!
Roger

[Doug Peterson]

This is one of the more straightforward questions asked here lately. You clearly state your biggest challenge to getting the images you want has been establishing proper focus. The Credo will provide you a faster, easier, and more enjoyable manner of establishing proper focus.

Live View and Super-fast 100% review on the Credo on a brighter LCD make it a better choice than the Aptus-II 12R which has no Live View and the 100% review of which is significantly slower to operate than the Credo.

Not to throw a wrench in your 1v1 comparison but the Phase One IQ160 would add one more tool to your kit: Focus Mask. This tool is often sited as a tool which tells you what is in focus. In reality no computer-based analysis of a single image can do this 100% reliably. However, used to quickly compare two images (e.g. 1 vs 2 degrees of tilt) it can help you quickly visualize the change in the shape and location of the DOF. I find this invaluable for systems with tilt and swing. If you've been working with a dealer that only carries Leaf and not Phase One it would explain why it hasn't entered your consideration process, but it deserves to be (the main consideration is how much the additional features of the more expensive Phase One IQ are worth to your needs/use).

As pointed out on a separate thread by FredBGG the Live View is not a cure-all. It accepts only a narrow range of light, and so in outdoor daylite you will need a variable ND filters (or a few fixed ND filters) to use it. More than likely you'll use the 100% review on screen as often or more often than Live View to make such focus evaluations (I make this statement by speaking at length with our customers who have kits similar to the ones you're considering, as well as my own personal shooting). One really nice feature in that regard is that once you've zoomed to 100% on an image it will remain zoomed into the same part of the image when you take a new shot which makes it very easy to see if you've improved the focus or not.

Any error in focusing will matter far more than 80mp vs 60mp, so to me this is a clear choice. Whether the additional $3500 fits in your budget is, of course, a separate issue.

And not to argue against myself, but you could also take the route of creating and using more/better presets for focus distance and tilt amount in order to avoid the need to evaluate focus in the field. A relatively simple table can be made in an afternoon by hand on an Index Card or saved as a PDF on an iPhone that records degrees of tilt (e.g. 0/1/2/3/4/5) and focus distance and resulting near-point-at-ground-height and near-point-at-camera-height distances. This limits your range of possible compositions, but would remove the requirement to evaluate focus on every image.

When making your final decision preferably you'd work with a dealer that could provide you a demo or rental of both backs to make a final decision based on your own individual reaction to working with both. After all, we are all individuals and your priorities and preferences are your own!

[Doug Peterson]

So which would you choose? The higher resolution back the A II 12 R is cheaper significantly, even if I had to buy a MacBook Air as well, and it has the rotating sensor. The Credo has a brighter LCD screen and LiveView in the back.

MacBook Air does not have a Firewire port and cannot be used with an Aptus-II 12R. It does have a Thunderbolt port but that does not provide enough power for an Aptus-II 12R and therefore would require an A/C adapter (eliminating it as a potential field system). You'd need a MacBook or MacBookPro with a firewire port.

The Credo CAN be used with the MacBookAir's Thunderbolt port because it runs off it's own battery power rather than relying on the tethering channel for power. It also has a USB3 port, but the firmware for USB tethering has not been released and is long overdue. Now that Apple finally (in June) started shipping a Mac with USB3 I'm cautiously optimistic we'll see said firmware update soon.

Then again with the Credo I don't foresee you'd need or want a laptop for tethering. The built in LCD, user interface, and interactivity speed is that good.

[FredBGG]

Here is another idea.
I'm guessing your issues are more with the flex body.

Depending on your what focal lengths you use you might want to consider a Fuji gx680 for your tilt shift work.

kapture group even makes a stitch adapter letting you almost double your effective sensor size and resolution.

The limitation would be that your widest lens would be a 50mm, but with the stitch back it would give you effectively a much wider angle and still retain tilt and shift.

Take a peek at kapturegroup.com

The Fuji gx680 would give you SLR and tilt shift. Fuji also made a loup viewfinder for critical focusing.
The loup is an 8x and can be moved around the screen.

Also the rial focusing makes it easy to do focus stacking or focus bracketing.

Here is the Fuji with the loup viewfinder.



If you are interested I can send you a pdf all about the system. Just PM me your email

[rogerxnz]

This is one of the more straightforward questions asked here lately. You clearly state your biggest challenge to getting the images you want has been establishing proper focus. The Credo will provide you a faster, easier, and more enjoyable manner of establishing proper focus.

Thank you, Doug, for your magnificent answers, which I accept entirely. But, as you say, my budget is a factor that I have to apply. For that reason, I have to question the ability to use the Aptus II as far as possible to make sure it will not suit me. The larger sensor (even though focusing is more critical) and the rotating back are pluses for me.

To my mind, is an incredible shame that with all the tablets and smartphones around, we still have to take a laptop into the field to act as a server. And the situation will not improve because the tablets and the smartphones that I have experience with do not have firewire and, even if they did, it is doubtful, from your comments, that they would have enough power to work with an Aptus II. I don't knpow whether the power issue will also limit the devices the Credo's can work with. I have seen a MacBook Air users' discussion thread who cannot use many types of USB 3 hard drives possibly because of lack of power output. They are not happy!

The dealer did mention Phase One backs and the availability of Focus Mask but said that those backs are about USD8,000 more expensive. Do you think there is a chance that Focus Mask might come to the Credo's?

One thing the dealer did show me when we were playing outside was a LCDVF (a black-hooded loupe with 2x magnification). That made quite a difference to me even on my Aptus 75. Admittedly, I could see the pixel makeup of the LCD screen on both backs and it was very noticeable on the Aptus 75, but still useful. So, my question is, does the LCD on an Aptus II have the same or increased pixel density compared to an Aptus 75? I have not found any numbers/specifications on this issue. Does anyone know them?

Thank you, Doug, once again.
Roger

[rogerxnz]

Here is another idea.
I'm guessing your issues are more with the Flexbody.

Depending on your what focal lengths you use you might want to consider a Fuji gx680 for your tilt shift work.

Thank you, Fred. The gx680 is a magnificent camera but very heavy and I have to be able to carry my gear into the bush. The gx680's weight might be justified for a 6 x 8 film frame but not when the digital sensor is the same as on my Hasselblad's.

And I do not want another camera system!!! Great photo of your get up, though.
Roger

[Doug Peterson]

Thank you, Doug, for your magnificent answers, which I accept entirely. But, as you say, my budget is a factor that I have to apply. For that reason, I have to question the ability to use the Aptus II as far as possible to make sure it will not suit me. The larger sensor (even though focusing is more critical) and the rotating back are pluses for me.

The sensor of the Aptus II 12R is the same full-frame sized sensor as the Credo 60. Do you mean the additional resolution?

To my mind, is an incredible shame that with all the tablets and smartphones around, we still have to take a laptop into the field to act as a server.

Well that's basically the reason the Credo/IQ have a screen and user interface good enough to forgo the laptop.

What is often missed in these discussions of wireless/hand-device tethering is just how long these backs are likely to be in useful service. We still have many customers using H25 backs which were released in 2003. I suspect many Credo 60 and Credo 80 units will still be in active service a decade from now.

With that in mind think about the Leaf Valeo 17wi released in 2004. It came with an iPaq handheld device which worked with both wired and wireless (bluetooth) tethering. At the time it was released it was revolutionary and ahead of it's time. It only took literally a year or two before the iPaq seemed a bit dated, and only a few years before the iPaq it was compatible with was no longer available or serviceable.

While I think tethering direct from camera to iPad would be fantastic and will be a boon to the first company that can make it happen. But I also understand how difficult it is to do this in a way that is reliable, fast, and future proof.

And the situation will not improve because the tablets and the smartphones that I have experience with do not have firewire and, even if they did, it is doubtful, from your comments, that they would have enough power to work with an Aptus II. I don't knpow whether the power issue will also limit the devices the Credo's can work with. I have seen a MacBook Air users' discussion thread who cannot use many types of USB 3 hard drives possibly because of lack of power output. They are not happy!

The Credo and IQ run off their internally batteries and, when enough power is available, charge over firewire. There is no issue running from computers with lower voltage (other than you may have to change batteries more often since they are charging slower/not-at-all).

The dealer did mention Phase One backs and the availability of Focus Mask but said that those backs are about USD8,000 more expensive. Do you think there is a chance that Focus Mask might come to the Credo's?

Credo 60 --> IQ160 is about $4.5k (bit more or less depending on promos, warranties, bundles etc). I think that makes the Credo a great deal assuming you don't need Sensor+, hard buttons, or focus mask, or auto-horizon correction in post.

I would not expect focus mask to come to the Credo, as it is one of the main differentiators between the two products. But only time will tell. Both platforms are likely to gain new features as the platform itself has processing power up the wazooh and a great interface to program for.
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[rogerxnz]

Thank you, again, Douglas, for your informative reply.

Yes, I was referring to the extra resolution (of the A II 12 back) and I do use my Aptus 75 with an iPAQ still. It works well for me, especially when the back is at an awkward angle or low down.

There was one question that I was hoping you would know the answer to: does the LCD on an Aptus II have the same or increased pixel density compared to an Aptus 75? I have not found any numbers/specifications on this issue. Do you know them?
Roger