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Author Topic: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)  (Read 5395 times)

dwdallam

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I think I've noticed a softer image when ISO noise reduction is enabled.

Can anyone confirm this?
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 10:33:56 am »

Are you shooting JPEGS or .cr2 format? If .cr2 what program are you doing your raw processing with.
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dwdallam

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 06:49:15 pm »

I only shoot RAW. I'm using Lightroom 4. I used a tripod. You bring up a good question though. I don't think I'm using any sharpening automatically. Since we have no idea how the image is really being captured--until it opens in a converter--then that may be the problem.

However, I'm not a real fan of using sharpening on anything but originally captured sharp images, and then only on the finished product--in other words, if I don't have a sharp images to stat with, it gets deleted. (Unless I'm using it for web use only and you can't see the softness.)

 I can tell easily when images start out soft and have been artificially sharpened to "look" sharp. Not so much with smaller prints or smaller web use, but at larger sizes, it's quite evident--and I really despise that look.

The reason I posed this question is that using my 70-200L (with IS turned off) for some infrastructure images, I noticed that even at the sweet spot, I was seeing a blurry image. It didn't look like lens blur, rather, it looked like resolution problems, where the image is just not sharp, but fuzzy looking. Something like when you see the distant  background edges at full resolution on a landscape image, where you have diffraction and haze in the air.

But I'm seeing this even on images that are 25' from me.

So I went back and looked at some recent images I did with portraits using the same lens, while hand holding it, and at 100% the focal point was razor sharp (usually the eyes).

I set up a ruler and shot the middle and after the second shot suddenly remembered that I had recently enabled ISO Noise Reduction in my camera. So I turned it off and shot a few more images. The image with noise reduction enabled was, to me eyes, softer than the image with NR disabled. In fact, the softness looked exactly like it did on the other images I had shot of the infrastructure. However, it was worse on the infrastructure do to the distance of the object.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 06:51:23 pm by dwdallam »
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 08:12:52 pm »

There is a difference between actual acuity (focus) and sharpening. If an image is not in focus it can still technically be sharpened but I think you understand that.

You write: I can tell easily when images start out soft and have been artificially sharpened to "look" sharp. I fully agree. But I disagree with the approach you take by applying sharpening only at the end of the process.

 With the help of the late Bruce Fraser and later Katrin Eismann, John Paul Caponigro, and Jeff Schewe,  I came to understand the need for sharpening when processing and preparing images for their final output form - and particularly separating the sharpening process into two if not three distinct stages to prevent an image obviously looking sharpening. Those stages are capture sharpening, an optional localized detail specific sharpening ( creative sharpening), and sharpening targeted for the final type, size, and method of reproduction.

My personal goal in the sharpening process  is for the effect to be "felt" but non-apparent to both the most critical ( nose against screen or print pixel peeper) of and casual of viewers. This requires a very light and subtle touch - one I still work at mastering but I do believe I have a pretty good handle on it.

Assuming  you have tuned your camera body for its peak auto-focus performance with the specific lens you are using with your camera's AF micro-adjustment settings, you are  using the same AF sensor location, and your tripod mounted images are softer than your hand held images with the same camera and lens at the same ISO, exposure (shutter-speed and aperture) settings, there is one more thing to check: do you have IS turned off when the camera and lens are tripod mounted?

There a lot of aspects  that the on camera camera processing algorithms do that we have little (at best) to no (more common) control of.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 08:43:16 pm »

I think I've noticed a softer image when ISO noise reduction is enabled.

Can anyone confirm this?
I assume you are talking in camera high ISO noise reduction?  Seems like this would only applied to jpeg files.

two thoughts ... any image filled with noise seems to look "soft" ... it just has too much junk mixed in with the good data.  Second, any time you do significant noise reduction it will come at the expense of loss of detail, which usually results in a softer image.  If it is affecting the raw files,  might try leaving it turned off and do it in post processing where you have more control.  Hard to get a sharp image back if you never had one to start with ...
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dwdallam

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 08:53:22 pm »

@Ellis

"The reason I posed this question is that using my 70-200L (with IS turned off) for some infrastructure images, I noticed that even at the sweet spot, I was seeing a blurry image."

Yes IS was off. Yes, focus and sharpening are different. You can never refocus and image. And yes, that is what I mean.
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dwdallam

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 08:55:06 pm »

@Wayne

I have since turned ISO NR off.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 11:52:23 pm »

Hi,

Absolutely, regarding in camera noise reduction for JPEG. Noise reduction is always smearing out pixels.

Another factor is that noise itself reduces sharpness, because the quality of information is degraded.

Regarding raw file noise reduction, some camera do that, too. Sony is known to apply noise reduction to raw files and so does for instance Leica on the M9.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/Half-cooked-RAW/Noise-reduction

Doing noise reduction in post can be more gentle as much more time demanding algorithms may be used. Newer versions of LR (LR3?) are much better than older versions. See this: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/32-new-raw-processing-pipeline-in-lightroom-3-beta-2

Best regards
Erik


I think I've noticed a softer image when ISO noise reduction is enabled.

Can anyone confirm this?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 04:28:38 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Keith Reeder

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 03:00:46 am »

Doing noise reduction in post can be more gentle as much more time demanding algorithms may be used.

Doing it in post also means it can be applied selectively on a duplicate layer and then erased from where it's not needed, which significantly increases its overall effectiveness.
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Keith Reeder
Blyth, NE England

dwdallam

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 03:26:36 am »

I believe I have found the problem. Shutter slap. I reviewed my images once again and found that anything in the 1/15-10th area were blurry, while those shot at or above 100th were much sharper. I'm assuming that shutter slap can blur images at around 130th area, but it you have a longer exposure, say something like 1/4 or more, the shutter slap doesn't have as much affect. And longer exposures, like 2+ seconds, even less.

So I think that may be it.
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MrSmith

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 04:46:04 am »

Was this using mirror-up/live view?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2012, 05:41:20 am »

You may want to invest in Loyd Chambers sharp image articles.

Cheers,
Bernard

dwdallam

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2012, 09:30:30 pm »

Was this using mirror-up/live view?

No, it wasn't. I was using auto focus. Also, just to clear this up, I tested my 1DSMKIII and my lenses using the focus on LCD screen test, and then using micro adjustment--all lenses--dead on. But that was back in 2008. Perhaps I should once again test then lenses against the body?
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dwdallam

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2012, 09:35:31 pm »

You may want to invest in Loyd Chambers sharp image articles.

Cheers,
Bernard


Never had any problem with sharpness till this, but I jsut found his article and I'll read it. Thanks.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2012, 02:54:18 am »

Never had any problem with sharpness till this

I know, but it seems it happens to most man in their 40s!

Cheers,
Bernard

Tony Jay

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 03:10:39 am »

I know, but it seems it happens to most m[e]n in their 40s!

Ouch, that hurt Bernard!

Tony Jay
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 05:47:41 am »


Doing nose reduction in post can be more gentle

true,  I"ve reduced noses in post on some portraits and no complaints of it hurting or anything  .. ;D.  (sorry couldn't help myself, 20 hours without sleep).
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Soft Image with ISO Noise Reduction Enabled? (Canon 1DS MKIII)
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2012, 04:29:32 am »

;-) ;-) ;-) Took a while until I saw your point! ;-);-);-)
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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