Phase One 120TS Schneider not working with focus indication.

[henrikfoto]

Many weeks ago I bought a Phase One 120TS. This is a manual lens and it is very hard to focus
without the focus-indicator in the DF camera. This works fine with all lenses I have tried, but not with this lens.

I told Phase One, and they told me it was a bug in the Firmware that would be fixes within a week or two.
Still, 6-8 weeks later nothing has happened , and the lens is useless..

Anybody else have this lens and the same problem?

I will send the lens back to Phase on Monday for a full refound if this isn't fixed this week.
Maybe if we all did the same something would happen?
I think they need to check their products better before selling them. This is not my only bad
experience with Phase One quality control lately. I think we can expect that all products are checked before shipping from the money we pay. Don't you?

Henrik

[FredBGG]

Are you having problems with the lens when it's not shifted or tilted?

The problem could also be that the DF just can't focus indicate accurately with a 5.6 lens of that focal length.

I found that the focus indicator was far from accurate with the Hasselblad 110mm f2.

Could be a similar problem while at the opposite end of aperture size.

I also had problems using the focus verify with my 5.6 Fuji lenses on an adapter I made for the DF.
The 3.2 lenses did better.

(I modified the adapter to fit the Nikon D800. Live view focusing with them is a real treat).

However I think that the 120 TS is going to be limited on the DF body simply due to the low magnification of the viewfinder
and lack of waist level finder. Relying on the focus confirmation even if they fix it will be limiting as you need verify focus
in areas beyond the center due to the shifting focusing plane. Realtime live view would help, but the slow live view is
IMO too slow to mess around with complicated tilt shift.

If you do end up returning the lens you could always get a Fuji gx680 as a tilt shift side kick for your Phase One system.

The 680 has fully independent tilt shift both vertically and horizontally on all lenses from 50mm to 500mm.

The lenses go for about $200 to $400 used. The 125mm is available in 5.6 as well as 3.2.



Best of all you would also be able to use the loup viewfinder for super accurate focus all around the frame because it is mobile.
The loup can be moved up down, left and right to explore the whole frame.



You would need a kapture group to phase one adapter and keep in mind that the 680 is big!

Here is an example of critical focusing with the Fuji gx680 Phase One P25+ and the 180mm 3.2 wide open





Focus hit rate on the shoot was almost 100%. Keep in mind it was posed.

[Doug Peterson]

Tape the contacts on the lens and the focus indication will work.

[FredBGG]

Tape the contacts on the lens and the focus indication will work.

from the Phase One website:


645DF CAMERA SYSTEM
Phase One redefines medium format digital capture with a seamless integration of lens, body, back and software.

So much for seamless integration... just keep the duct tape handy.

This has got to be pretty unnerving for someone who has bought this lens.

[yaya]

Fantastic...another thread that lasted less than two posts before turning into a GX680 promo...(great camera BTW, if not the most suitable for digital capture...)

[henrikfoto]

Tape the contacts on the lens and the focus indication will work.

A representative from Phase One did this when I watched, and it still didn't work.
Anyway- should this be needed on a brand new lens costing tousands of dollars???

Phase need to do their work BEFORE they deliver expensive lenses.

The Fuji is very nice, but it's big and heavy..


Henrik

[Pics2]

Fred, what is the best Fuji GX680 lens for macro and product work? (Sorry for keeping the thread turned into Fuji promo, but just had to ask )

[henrikfoto]

Just got the feedback from Phase One.
New firmware might be ready in september

My lens is being returned to Phase One now.
Great idea to sell lenses that the camera might be ready to handle 6 months later.

Maybe Hy6 is a better route..

 

[design_freak]

Just got the feedback from Phase One.
New firmware might be ready in september

My lens is being returned to Phase One now.
Great idea to sell lenses that the camera might be ready to handle 6 months later.

Maybe Hy6 is a better route..

 

CONTAX ?  HASSELBLAD ?

[henrikfoto]

Contax is dead, Hasselblad seems to be sleeping and with no lenses to cover the 80mp sensors..

Hy6 is some kind of secret for strange reasons..

So I guess it's eather Phase df or Nikon?

[FredBGG]

Contax is dead, Hasselblad seems to be sleeping and with no lenses to cover the 80mp sensors..

Hy6 is some kind of secret for strange reasons..

So I guess it's eather Phase df or Nikon?

Keep in mind that the Fuji covers far beyond the 80MP sensors.

Kapture group even makes a stitch back adapter letting you do two captures and stitching them moving the back.
160mp without stitching software.

Without the back you can also do lens shift stitches without moving the camera. You won't get 160mp, about 100 or so.

[FredBGG]

Fred, what is the best Fuji GX680 lens for macro and product work? (Sorry for keeping the thread turned into Fuji promo, but just had to ask )

PM me your email and I'll send you a PDF with a listing of all the lenses including minimum focus and close up subject size (subject image area size)
Includes values for both 40mm and 80mm extension rails.
Keep in mind the values are for 6x8cm

Also the communication between camera and lens is over a flat cable. Extensions can be found at electronic component stores.

I made a double long bellows modification for a friend with two 80mm extension rails for a total of about 200mm.

Regarding macro I have heard that the 100mm f4 is a popular choice.

With the 80mm rail extension it focuses to .45m and has a magnification of 1.3 and an image area of 41mm x 55mm

[FredBGG]

Fantastic...another thread that lasted less than two posts before turning into a GX680 promo...(great camera BTW, if not the most suitable for digital capture...)

Actually very good for digital Tilt shift.

First of all there are 17 tilt shift lenses in the system from 50mm to 500mm.
Second several viewfinder options including the mobile magnifier hood that has an 8x magnification and opens so you can see the full frame.
The eyepiece can be moved around to check focus right into the corners.
Third the rear lens elements are further from the sensor with reducing color shifts a bit when tilting or shifting.... this is thanks to the large mirror for 6x8.

With the kapture group adapter the Phase One backs work just fine.

Limitations are size, weight and fastest shutter speed being 1/400th

[yaya]

The 680 lenses aren't so great when used with higher resolution backs, especially shifted and when compared to some LF lenses. Also the KG box can be finicky at times and is tricky to operate with live view
But the major drawback for many is the lack of any wide or moderately wide angle lens

And BTW colour shifts are reduced because the lenses are retrofocal, making their exit pupil sit away from the sensor and the light travel in a relatively straight line

[FredBGG]

The 680 lenses aren't so great when used with higher resolution backs, especially shifted and when compared to some LF lenses. Also the KG box can be finicky at times and is tricky to operate with live view
But the major drawback for many is the lack of any wide or moderately wide angle lens

And BTW colour shifts are reduced because the lenses are retrofocal, making their exit pupil sit away from the sensor and the light travel in a relatively straight line

Regarding wide angles ... yes the system was designed for 80x60mm film and not 55x40mm sensors. The 50mm on 6x8 is actually wider than the 28mm Mamiya/Leaf is on a sensor.
True though 50mm is not very wide on a 50x40mm or smaller sensor.

Regarding high res sensors and the Fujinons. The Fuji lenses look great. The 100mm f4 is a really sharp lens. It will hold up against any Hasselblad or Phase lens.
The real strong point of the Fuji lenses is the look they have Bokeh is smooth at all apertures. Not the case with the 5 blade iris Phase/Schneider lenses.
The Mamiya 150mm 2.8 IF on the other hand is brilliant. Sharp and with state of the art bokeh. However my favorite MF lenses remain the Fuji gx680 180mm 3.2 and 250mm 5.6... when used full frame... with film.

I use the Fuji GX680 lenses on the Nikon d800 and in the past on the Canon 5DII. These sensors have a pixel size that is the same as higher res MFDB. No problem with fine details.

This image was shot with the P25+ and at F3.2

100% pixel peep:



That's plenty sharp detail on the eyelashes... and this was shot with tilt.
180mm 3.2 (not the sharpest 680 lens)

[yaya]

No offence but a 9µ 48X36 sensor focused on the centre of the frame doesn't really push the lens....same with the D800, its tiny sensor covers a very small section of the image area....try a 60MP or an 80MP back on it, shifted at f11 and you'll see what I mean...

The "look" and bokeh may still be very nice but sharpness wise these lenses are not the best.

[Doug Peterson]

Sorry to bring this back on topic...

A representative from Phase One did this when I watched, and it still didn't work.
Anyway- should this be needed on a brand new lens costing tousands of dollars???

Phase need to do their work BEFORE they deliver expensive lenses.

Don't know who the "Phase One Rep" was or what they did, but taping the contacts will make the focus indication work. It doesn't need to be any special tape other than it needs to block the electronic communication.

"should this be needed on a brand new lens?" (of any cost). No, of course not. It's a bug and will be fixed.

The lens is incredibly sharp and the movements are mechanically solid. I used it recently to shoot a collection of Audemar Piguet watches. Stunning quality and a lot faster than using a full sized view camera.

[FredBGG]

No offence but a 9µ 48X36 sensor focused on the centre of the frame doesn't really push the lens....same with the D800, its tiny sensor covers a very small section of the image area....try a 60MP or an 80MP back on it, shifted at f11 and you'll see what I mean...

The "look" and bokeh may still be very nice but sharpness wise these lenses are not the best.

Sorry your wrong about the pixel pitch.....The pixel pitch on the Canon 5D II is pitch is 6.25µm and on the Nikon D800 it is 4.88 microns.

That is the same about the same as the 60 and 40 MP sensors for the Canon.
However the pixel pitch of the D800 is even smaller than the 80mp MFD sensors.

Regarding the smaller sensor... I did a test with the sensor offset from the center of the lens.
I did a comparison between the Canon 200mm 2.8L one of the sharpest canon lenses.

Here it is (copied from a post I made on another forum)

 
I did a little comparison between my Fuji GX680 250mm f5.6 and the Canon 200mm F2.8L Mark II @5.6.

I used the Canon 5d Mark II for the captures. To capture the Fuji lens images I held the Canon 5D II behind the Fuji 680 body.

I expected the Fuji lens to be somewhat inferior as it is about 20 years old and has an image circle of about 200mm while the Canon has an image circle of 50mm

well it was quite interesting...

Here is a 100% crop (scaled down by Flickr) from the Fuji/Canon capture (sensor placed to the right of the lenses center):



And here is the same from the Canon/canon capture



Quite amazing how well the Fuji compares, especially considering that the Fuji is shooting at full aperture while the Canon is shooting stopped down two stops ... at 5.6 that is it's best aperture.

Here are the full frames:

Fuji/Canon capture:


Canon/canon capture


See how the Bokeh on the Fuji is nicer and you get it already at 5.6. This is important to me as I like to shoot at slowish shutter speeds so that I can get some movement such as a dress or hair in the wind.

Then if you consider ontop of that the fact that if I was using the full frame I would be closer to the bush and would have even better bokeh on the background.

Throw in the higher dynamic range of film especially in the highlights and it's a formula that I like.

And one other thing. When running the images of the Fuji/canon and the Canon/canon through the JPEG compressor the Fuji lens files always came out larger indicating that there is more information in the Fuji lens images.


One thing that this test clearly indicates one interesting thing. If you consider that the Fuji lens when using the full 6x8 frame will be projecting about 6x more information.....  well it indicated that for now only film gives you the opportunity to capture these large format images projected by these unique lenses.

Here is a diagram to show how little of the full frame the Canon was capturing:

And just to give an idea of how sharp the Canon 200mm 2.8L II is (and how damn cute my son was... he's 6'4" now ):


Shot at 2.8

[yaya]

Sorry your wrong about the pixel pitch.....

Am I

P25+ utilises 9 micron pixels in a 49x37mm sensor (you should know as a seasoned Phase user...)

You're showing an image that has focus on the centre and that was shot wide open. Try the same setup on a flat subject stopped down and tell us how the corners look like. Then try it with an 80MP back...

The D800 sensor covers an even smaller area...again not utilising the large image circle.

Don't get me wrong the Fuji at the time was a great film camera and we have several customers who still use it for studio work with 22MP back. But the lenses unfortunately are not up to snuff when used with larger, higher resolution sensors

Yair

[FredBGG]

What I meant is that the lenses preform very well even with shift when used on sensors with pixel pitches
that are the same as the 80MP MFDB as well as sensors with smaller pixel MP pitches.

I know of several photographers that use the p65+ with the 680 and love the combination.

It really is a great and inexpensive side kick for someone that owns a Phase, Mamiya or Hasselblad H MFDB camera.