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Author Topic: In search of the perfect 35mm lens  (Read 5662 times)

erpman

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In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« on: July 17, 2012, 05:30:20 am »

I´m looking for some creative advice on a 35mm, be it zoom or prime, for my d800e. I already have the 24-70mm 2.8 ED for shooting commercial work, but find that at 35mm, which is what I mostly use for critical artistic work (landscape, nature), it´s just not good enough. This has to do with pronounced distortion, CA and lack of sharpness in the corners.

I´m looking for a lens that consequently doesn´t have these issues. The lens must have AF (since I do focus stacking with helicon remote). I don´t worry about wide open performance, as I almost always shoot at f8 and beyond. This widens the choices somewhat.

The nikon 35mm 1.4 would be the obvious choice, but it has too much distortion (and I don´t like messing with the pixels to correct it in post).

The samyang 35mm 1.4 has everything I´m asking for, clean image and even distribution of excellent sharpness across the frame but lacks AF.

What about older AF-D zooms in the normal range? I´ve looked at the 28-105 and the 35-70, but neither seem to beat the newer 24-70 mm. Are there some third party lenses (tokina, sigma, tamron etc) that could have a sweet spot at this particular focal length?

Input is much appreciated!
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marcmccalmont

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 06:36:27 am »

It probably does not exist.
I've chosen to have a general purpose lens' with AF and stabilization and then landscape/artistic lenses that are optically superior but manual focus.
What is the situation you need AF on your landscape/artistic lens? Any reason you can't correct the distortions on your 24-70 2.8 with DxO Optics?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

BernardLanguillier

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 07:33:56 am »

Dxo will correct the distorsion of the 35mm perfectly. I would give it a try if I were you.

Now, I expect Nikon to release soon a 35mm f1.8, but this is purely a guess... :-)

Cheers,
Bernard

Pingang

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 08:26:52 am »

I actually think the 24-70/2.8 ED on D800 or in my case, D800E or previous with D3X, is the best ONE lens solution.  Today's software does a good job correcting some optical imperfection and the 24-70/2.8 is already a very good lens.

Pingang
Shanghai


I´m looking for some creative advice on a 35mm, be it zoom or prime, for my d800e. I already have the 24-70mm 2.8 ED for shooting commercial work, but find that at 35mm, which is what I mostly use for critical artistic work (landscape, nature), it´s just not good enough. This has to do with pronounced distortion, CA and lack of sharpness in the corners.

I´m looking for a lens that consequently doesn´t have these issues. The lens must have AF (since I do focus stacking with helicon remote). I don´t worry about wide open performance, as I almost always shoot at f8 and beyond. This widens the choices somewhat.

The nikon 35mm 1.4 would be the obvious choice, but it has too much distortion (and I don´t like messing with the pixels to correct it in post).

The samyang 35mm 1.4 has everything I´m asking for, clean image and even distribution of excellent sharpness across the frame but lacks AF.

What about older AF-D zooms in the normal range? I´ve looked at the 28-105 and the 35-70, but neither seem to beat the newer 24-70 mm. Are there some third party lenses (tokina, sigma, tamron etc) that could have a sweet spot at this particular focal length?

Input is much appreciated!
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erpman

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 12:31:38 pm »

The reason I need AF is that I tend to do a lot of focus stacking with Helicon remote. This is also why I don´t want to do lens corrections in post, because it makes the process very tedious, and I don´t want to throw the pixels around more than necessary.

Unless maybe I could do corrections on a completed focus stack (tiff) with DxO?

A high end 35mm 1.8 would be perfect...
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erpman

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 12:35:31 pm »

In fact, I just googled to check for any rumors about a new 35mm, and behold: http://nikonrumors.com/2012/01/15/nikon-files-patent-for-a-35mm-f2-8-vr-full-frame-lens.aspx/
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Ellis Vener

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 12:45:58 pm »

Have you tried the 35mm f/2 AF-D?

How are you processing your raw files?
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erpman

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 12:50:49 pm »

I haven´t tried it, but from the reviews that I´ve read it´s not superior to the 24-70mm.

I process my files in RawDeveloper, and then do focus stacking on those tiffs in Helicon focus. Then I sometimes stitch 3-4 frames with Photoshop.
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marcmccalmont

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 05:58:00 pm »

The reason I need AF is that I tend to do a lot of focus stacking with Helicon remote. This is also why I don´t want to do lens corrections in post, because it makes the process very tedious, and I don´t want to throw the pixels around more than necessary.

Unless maybe I could do corrections on a completed focus stack (tiff) with DxO?

A high end 35mm 1.8 would be perfect...
Actually DxO corrected tiffs make the job easier for both helicon Focus and PTgui!
Tamron 24-70 2.8 VC photozone says distortion is down at 35mm http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/741-tamron2470f28eosff?start=2
Marc
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 06:29:22 pm by marcmccalmont »
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Marc McCalmont

bill t.

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 07:47:08 pm »

Are you using Helicon Remote in the field?  I've gotten great results using just tape marks, for which one can develop a generic set that works for all situations.  Am planning to order a 35 Zeiss the same day as the D800e.
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DaveCurtis

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 03:19:58 am »

Are you using Helicon Remote in the field?  I've gotten great results using just tape marks, for which one can develop a generic set that works for all situations.  Am planning to order a 35 Zeiss the same day as the D800e.

I use the Zeiss 35/2 and 35/1.4. Both are very good. The 35/2 has a flatter field and the 35/1.4 has amazing bokeh.
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JohnBrew

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 07:53:03 am »


The nikon 35mm 1.4 would be the obvious choice, but it has too much distortion (and I don´t like messing with the pixels to correct it in post).

Really? Have you shot with one? I tried one for a week and can't say I found distortion to be a problem. OTOH, if that is your problem with the 1.4G, you probably would be happier with a Zeiss or the 24-70.

NancyP

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 02:01:32 pm »

A manual focus lens ought to be able to be used with manual focus stacking for landscape shots, as the focusing ring rotation angle is larger than that of an autofocus lens.
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bernhardAS

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 10:42:42 pm »

Maybe read some reviews of the Tokina 17-35 4.0. It has been compared a lot to the Nikon 17-35 2.8 at the time. The general consensus seemed to have been that it has much less distortions, however needs to be stopped down to 5.6 or 8 to catch up in sharpness.

I never owned the Tokina, so second hand knowledge.  

Edit: Even the Nikon 17-35 2.8 has its lowest distortion at 35 maybe worth a look. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 10:44:27 pm by bernhardAS »
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NashvilleMike

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 01:51:31 pm »

Interesting. Looking at the distortion figures on photozone, I find:

Nikon 35/1.4G: -1.64% barrel
Samyang 35/1.4: -1.65% barrel
Zeiss 35/2: -1.8% barrel
Nikon 24-70/2.8G at 40mm (closest fl they report): 1.08% pincushion.

Of the set, the Nikon 35/1.4G would be the one I think would work the best. However, I think you're going to struggle to find a sharp lens with excellent contrast characteristics that also has zero distortion on a DSLR, from any brand.

It's interesting that you don't find the 24-70 acceptable, so if I may be allowed to, I'll go off on a tangent about these two lenses. Personally, I use both the 24-70 and 35/1.4G for critical work on my D800E. There are minor differences between the lenses performance, but I deem both professionally sharp on print at least to 17x22" or A2 print size, at least in the range from F/7.1 - F/10, which I try to stay within for landscape shooting if I can. So I can't speak to the lenses performance at other apertures; of course I'd assume the prime would have a greater advantage at, say, F/4, in the corners.

The differences however, mean that one or the other might be the best choice for a particular subject, which I'll try to explain as follows: The two lenses have differing field curvature and different sharpness/frame profiles, and thus, one will suit some tasks slightly better, and vice versa.

The 35/1.4G seems to be designed to provide very even performance across the field, with what I would term a moderately high level of contrast, fairly neutral colors and a slightly more subtle rendering.

The 24-70/2.8 seems to be designed with a slight bias towards central zone sharpness (and by this I mean a fairly wide central zone) with a very slight falling off in the corners, with slightly stronger contrast and a somewhat warmer, more romantic subjective rendering.

I am finding as I continue to shoot/explore with both lenses that the field curvature is different - almost opposite each other - and thus the corner performance totally depends on whether the subject in the deep corners is favored by or hurt by the lenses field curvature. Thus, there have been cases where I've found the zoom to actually have better corners in some cases, although I think in general the prime might have the lead in general. The point is, though, it's not quite as cut and dry as one lens absolutely without question having better corners, and of course, the D800E lays all lens performance differences out there for us to see. The bigger question is how much of these differences are visible in print.

As for the other lenses I've used at 35mm: I can't recommend the 16-35 and 17-35 options: Neither is anywhere as good overall at 35mm, and the 35/2 isn't anything worth writing about either compared to the others. I've had all three and they have long been sold. I honestly don't know if there is going to be one lens that will fit your needs if you don't want to adjust distortion in post. My best guess is the 35/1.4g will be the lens for you given it's so balanced in it's design and from the numbers on photozone, has the least amount of barrel distortion, which I find easier to handle than pincushion. I can't speak about the Zeiss options as I've not yet shot with them on the D800E, and don't have any immediate plans to, given my schedule.

Good luck in your search.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 02:08:24 pm by NashvilleMike »
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erpman

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 02:25:21 pm »

Thanks for interesting and well thought out input!

I admit that I might be looking for a white whale, or that I just have too high standards to be realistic. And as you say Mike, the d800e puts every lens out there bare naked.

For the time being, I realize more and more that when we disregard the reduced corner sharpness and CA of the 24-70 it really is very good, and has a nice punchy contrast. It also performs well on apertures above f8.

One thing that puzzles me is that the results from photozone for the prime that you quote Mike, are miles away from the results for resolution at DxO mark. When comparing the two the zoom beats the prime both in center and in the corners at photozone, but at DxO the prime looks hideous in comparison at nearly all apertures. Could photozone have gotten a poor specimen, or is it related to different testing procedures? Could that be related to differences in field curvature?

What subjects have you found the curvature on the prime to favour?

Maybe the 35mm 1.4 isn´t so bad after all because of the even sharpness and lack of CA. Distortion is nearly equally low as on the zoom.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 02:28:41 pm by erpman »
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NashvilleMike

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2012, 04:59:12 pm »

Regarding lens testing sites: While I enjoy DXO's sensor rankings, I've struggled to find a correlation between their lens tests and my own personal evaluation of lenses; thus, I don't really pay much attention to them. I don't take the various lens tests sites as the last word either; MTF testing is useful to a point, but it doesn't tell us everything about how a lens performs in the real world, particularly given some designs are optimized for different distances and may be tweaked towards particular use cases. However, when I look at the various test sites, I tend to look at photozone first and then look at the subjective opinions of various individuals at various sites before I own a lens, and of course once I purchase a lens, I evaluate it over a period of time in multiple scenarios before I think I can have a reasonably accurate opinion of it's performance. I also tend to believe that the consensus of various opinions about a lens generally are more accurate than one outlier opinion. I also find some sites don't have testing methodology I agree with (lenstip, for example, I find near useless, where color foto in germany, along with photozone, I find more useful)

In terms of field curvature: The two test scenarios I've run both the 35/1.4G and the 24-70/2.8 in were situations where the focus point was something at a moderate distance away with both detail behind the focused main subject and detail in the foreground. A good example would be if you were to photograph a waterfall dropping into a pool of water; imagine behind the waterfall (not horribly behind, but behind) you had some trees and rocks, and the pool of water extends to the foreground of your image and you've got a few neat wet rocks in it that you use for your "near" element in a traditional near/middle/far composition. Assuming you've selected an aperture that has sufficient depth of field for the task, what I've typically found is that the objects in the corners and edges near the camera - the rocks in our imaginary pool of water closer to you than the focused subject - will be rendered sharper by the 35/1.4G, but contrarily, the detail in the trees and rocks behind the focused subject will be a bit sharper with the zoom (at the same aperture and focus point). It almost seems like the field curves are opposite, with the curvature extending towards the camera on the prime, and away from the camera on the zoom. I haven't tested this in a lab, but I've seen it occur enough that this is my best guestimate of what is happening - I could be wrong.
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aaron

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2012, 05:46:00 pm »

Has anyone any experience of the Nikon 16-35 f/4 on th D800?

I did a quick test and it seemed pretty sharp. It's rarely mentioned though in D800 conversation...... ???
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Stephen Starkman

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 12:43:37 pm »

My testing of the 16-35 AF-S VR on a D800E showed it to be very sharp in the centre and soft at the edges and softer still in the extreme corners - depended a bit on focal length. Also very high distortion at 16mm (which can be compensated for if shooting jpg or in post). For my type of shooting (landscapes, abstracts) I deemed the soft edges and corners the non-starter.

Stephen
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NashvilleMike

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Re: In search of the perfect 35mm lens
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2012, 01:35:15 pm »

I had a 16-35/4, and on a D700, D300, or D7000, it was markedly weak at 35mm compared to every other option I had lying around the shop at the time, so I ended up selling it. I don't expect it would be amazing at this focal length on a D800/D800E, but I've been surprised before.

I will say that the 16-35 was superb at 24mm on those bodies though. However, not so much so at the wide end.

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