Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional  (Read 7612 times)

agentsmurf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« on: July 04, 2012, 01:51:04 pm »

I am thinking of defecting to canon. As a current Epson user I am unhappy with the dottiness, of peppering in the highlights of the Canon prints. Here are a few points of concern, I would appreciate any feedback from someone with experience on both printers.

1. Is there any benefit in using the "High precision mode", does it make the print finer or is it just the layering order of the inks as suggested by others in reviews.
2. Does unidirectional make the print finer or more accurate as it used to on the 9800 printers.
3. Does the custom paper feed patch really improve the image accuracy and quality. the reason i ask this is I was trying to use EFI rip with the canon and it cannot see the custom paper setting i created, it just seems to send the paper setting chosen in the rip. So for example if i make a custom paper (on the printer not the rip) and call it Moab 290, obviously the rip wont have this paper, so I have to choose something predefined like special 9 (in the rip). Once i have sent the print the front panel shows the paper setting from the rip and not the one I made and selected on loading the roll. It definitely seems that the rip is overriding the paper mode which is a problem if the custom media setting affects the print quality due to optimisation in the feed characteristics.

Its really quite a big difference between the Canon and the Epson. The epson is way way smoother and sharper, I cant believe people are not commenting on the difference in print quality.

btw I have tried the native OS drivers, still peppery.

Thanks for any insights you might have.
cheers


Logged

Scott Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1315
    • Onsight
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2012, 02:46:13 pm »

Nozzle Check? Have you done an Advanced Print Head alignment on the paper you're actually using? Have you performed the on-board calibration prior to making your custom profiles? Start with all of this using just the driver (or PS plug-in). Chances are your machine your machine just isn't fully setup yet.

And yes, High Precision Mode lowers the print head, changes the ink order, number of passes and has more accurate dot placement. That said, it slows printing down considerably and because the quality is just so dang good without it, few people use this mode. You should perform a test and decide which mode is best for you.
Logged
Scott Martin
www.on-sight.com

Czornyj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1949
    • zarzadzaniebarwa.pl
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2012, 03:22:51 pm »

I know exactly what you mean and no, you won't get rid of that effect of dottiness in highlights (most noticeable in neutrals), no matter what mode you'll use.

On the other hand - all people I asked didn't see that difference at all, I suppose the problem is I have a sight like a S.A.S. sniper. BTW - I also asked similar question here 1,5 year ago:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50531.msg419974#msg419974
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 03:48:48 pm by Czornyj »
Logged
Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

agentsmurf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2012, 04:54:50 pm »

Thanks for the confirmation guys, I did really try every conceivable setting and yip we must have Sniper eyes, the guy at the tech centre thought i was mad, but it seemed pretty obvious to me. :)

I guess its only really an issue when printing small things like A4-A3, most things jobs dont have the source resolution to bother.
Logged

aaronchan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 617
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 01:16:39 am »

When you use the MCT for 8300, actually what you can do is pick a preset media surface and apply feed adjustment, bit very minimal ink limit control and a custom name for your third party paper.

Which a RIP will do all of these in a more advance, complicated way. That's why you don't see your custom preset on your RIP media selection.

The realized the skin tone does create bigger screen dot than the Epson. I think it might be the variation of the dithering technology, or the native resolution from the head as well, 300dpi vs 360dpi. But overall, I think think Canon is better than the Epson in a production way, since I have successfully reduce my waste since I changed to Canon.

I used to run a lot of Epson LFP for a long time but seems like Canon really did a great job recently to make the machine work like a horse!

Aaron

Czornyj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1949
    • zarzadzaniebarwa.pl
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 02:25:02 pm »

The realized the skin tone does create bigger screen dot than the Epson. I think it might be the variation of the dithering technology, or the native resolution from the head as well, 300dpi vs 360dpi. But overall, I think think Canon is better than the Epson in a production way, since I have successfully reduce my waste since I changed to Canon.

Native resolution of iPF's print head is 1200dpi vs 360dpi of Epson SP head, so it's rather a matter of dithering algorithm.
Logged
Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

David Sutton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1345
    • David Sutton Photography
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 07:24:54 pm »

I don't see the effect in the highlights you mention on my 6300. But there is a visible difference between printing out of Lightroom and printing with Qimage. Mostly I print with LR because it's easier and the results are very good, but when I need the best smoothest detail then Qimage does it, though with a clumsier interface.
You may be interested in the article at TOP by Ctein which discusses printer variability:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2012, 05:59:17 am »

If that fluctuation of smoother and coarser patterns between printers is the result of the heads only then the Canons and HPs have the "advantage" that it can be achieved with an exchange of just the heads. I am still very content with the HP Z3200 and Z3100. The droplet sizes they squirt are fixed at 4 and 6 picoliter which is rougher than the fixed 4 picoliter droplets of the Canons and the minimum 3.5 droplet of the Epsons, talking wide formats here. The Epsons however will use larger droplets in the lower resolution settings next to the minimum droplet.  Many use the highest print resolution settings of the Epsons for reasons that can be found in other Epson threads here. Droplet sizes are one thing; print resolutions, dithering, weaving strokes, 8 and 16 bit drivers are important too. The same heads as used in the Z3100 and Z3200 are used in the B9180 A3 printer but that one has better dithering algorithms so the A3 print shows finer detail and smoother gradations. The longer computation times for the A3 size plus the lower printing speed are acceptable for that printer type, translating that to the larger models would not be acceptable.
When the Canon iPF5000 and a bit later the larger Canon models were introduced in 2006 and the HP Z3100 at the end of that year too, it was clear that the Canons had a somewhat rougher dot pattern than the Z3100 and both were coarser than the Epson models of that period when the last were set at the highest print resolution. But the newcomers were much faster, especially the Canons. On several matte papers and on canvas that difference in image quality was minimised, the more if the usual lower resolutions were used for those jobs. The image quality difference on the best papers may still be apparent in the latest versions of the different brand models but that image quality gain in the Epsons goes together with the use of the highest resolution setting and even then the user has to pay more attention to flaws in the output, more than with the other brands. In a production environment I would go for a Canon iPF8300 and wait for the iPF9300 that most likely will appear at the 2012 Photokina. I can cope my print volume with the Zs though and that without headaches.

I do use Qimage Ultimate like I have done over almost a decade with other printers so I can not comment whether that makes a difference on smoothness, I think it is mainly the driver that influences smoothness and Qimage is not 16 bit throughout so in theory should be handicapped at that aspect. However Qimage has always delivered an excellent detail quality.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update april 2012: Harman by Hahnemühle, Innova IFA45 and more
Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2012, 06:17:27 am »

I do use Qimage Ultimate like I have done over almost a decade with other printers so I can not comment whether that makes a difference on smoothness, I think it is mainly the driver that influences smoothness and Qimage is not 16 bit throughout so in theory should be handicapped at that aspect.

Hi Ernst,

Qimage's smoothness is the result of upsampling to the printer's native resolution. It uses (allows to choose) the algorithms that retain the original smooth gradients, and attempts to keep edges from blurring too much or generating visible artifacts (jaggies).

I like the Hybrid SE algorithm because it produces an upsampled result with minimal artifacts  (no halos or blocking), and the newer Fusion algorithm creates a slightly sharper impression but does generate mild halo (may be hard to detect in print output though).

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2012, 07:52:53 am »

Hello Bart,

I am aware of the resampling to printer's native resolutions but wonder whether that would have any effect if an area within an image's smooth gradient is resampled (up or down) to the native resolution by Qimage or the driver. One of them has to do it and I do not think that driver's algorithms are so bad that they have flaws in just upsampling gradients. Qimage already reduces any 16-bit image input to 8-bit and will not cope with a 16-bit driver, while to my knowledge 16-bit has advantages with any gradient content. I had those areas in mind and not edges from gradients to detail etc where one usually sees the effects of resampling and print sharpening algorithms. What you mention about the algorithm choices refers to the last and you are correct on that.

With the Canon iPF8300 16-bit plug-in driver for Photoshop, users mention image quality improvements compared to the normal driver output. How well that testing is done I do not know but it would be interesting to have a thorough testing done with some practical workflows through Lightroom, Photoshop and Qimage that should result in the best prints possible for each.

It has been more often discussed with Mike whether Qimage Ultimate could become 16-bit throughout. His usual reply is that he does not see visual improvements in a 16-bit print compared to an 8-bit print. Which is an answer that does not cover the question's content totally. I think I can agree with what he thinks when I experience that even a 0-255 B&W step wedge is not always represented correctly in a print. On the other hand 16-bit ICC profile conversions should be an improvement compared to 8-bit and I do not know at what level that is done in Qimage Ultimate, LCMS territory in that application. At what level the RAW conversions happen is not discussed either I think, dcraw module then working.

Even with these questions in mind I am a happy user of Qimage Ultimate.


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad,piëzografie,giclée
www.pigment-print.com



Logged

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2012, 10:41:36 am »

Doesn't the IPF-8300 16 bit plug-in convert and output the file at the native resolution also?

One of the things that people are seeing with Q-Image is very effective output sharpening compared to any of the standard print driver.  I find the Canon plug-in has very good output sharpening also. But I haven't done a test on the Canon compared to the same file on the HP. I use Q-Image with the HP which I find does stellar conversion of upsized dslr files. I've done quite a number of 40x60 inch prints from 21 mega pixel files, sending them over to the printer at 150 ppi and it just works so well. If you can send them over at 180 ppi, for say 30x40 prints, its just that much better.

Q-Image is a  slow process though, and if I'm doing a lot of big prints in a day, the Canon just spits them out so fast and so smoothly. I can probably get 3-4 times the amount of work done in the same time period even at uni directional 16 bit.

john


Logged

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8914
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2012, 10:48:33 am »

Hello Bart,

I am aware of the resampling to printer's native resolutions but wonder whether that would have any effect if an area within an image's smooth gradient is resampled (up or down) to the native resolution by Qimage or the driver.

Depending on the particular printer driver/firmware, there may well be a difference. A good test target also for such upsampling interpolation is the Zoneplate target, e.g. the one from my webpage on downsampling, because it has many different spatial frequencies of (curved) gradients at many orientations. I can make a larger version available if that's helpful.

When drivers/firmware still use bilinear interpolation, then posterization in gradients is more likely. In addition, resampling should ideally be done in linear gamma space, and I'm not sure if even Qimage does that ...
 
Quote
With the Canon iPF8300 16-bit plug-in driver for Photoshop, users mention image quality improvements compared to the normal driver output. How well that testing is done I do not know but it would be interesting to have a thorough testing done with some practical workflows through Lightroom, Photoshop and Qimage that should result in the best prints possible for each.

If somewone were willing to donate me an iPF8300, I'd have a go at it myself ;) . Getting it up the stairs would be the bigger challenge ...

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: Canon 8300 or 6300 High Precision mode and unidirectional
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2012, 12:16:11 pm »

Depending on the particular printer driver/firmware, there may well be a difference. A good test target also for such upsampling interpolation is the Zoneplate target, e.g. the one from my webpage on downsampling, because it has many different spatial frequencies of (curved) gradients at many orientations. I can make a larger version available if that's helpful.

When drivers/firmware still use bilinear interpolation, then posterization in gradients is more likely. In addition, resampling should ideally be done in linear gamma space, and I'm not sure if even Qimage does that ...
 
If somewone were willing to donate me an iPF8300, I'd have a go at it myself ;) . Getting it up the stairs would be the bigger challenge ...

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,

Drivers improved a lot on interpolation since 2000, major steps around 2006 if I recall it correctly. I have no iPF8300 but a friend in Amsterdam has one and Qimage Ultimate, Photoshop and possibly Lightroom at hand. If I ask it friendly he will allow you to test it. 10 minutes walk from CS.

On the Gamma 1.0 resampling,  I asked Mike that question in relation to darker/lighter output of different sizes from the same image file:
http://ddisoftware.com/tech/qimage/gamma-resampling-and-bits/?wap2
His answer is a practical one and sound in that sense, the more in view of the existence of multiple sRGB profile variations mentioned recently:
http://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/srgb-profile-comparison.html
Short Colorsync thread on the subject too.

Sure, one could try to standardise the input more and then use linear Gamma in the resampling stage but it may not be as easy in a print shop. ImageMagick or one of the others does it I guess ?


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

Dinkla Grafische Techniek
Quad,piëzografie,giclée
www.pigment-print.com



Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up