Dynamic range and highlight recovery... thought I would lose it...

[Quentin]

Not sure this has anything to do with MFD versus 35mm digital, more a case of continuing improvements in the most modern generation of sensors.  Each generation shows improvements over the last. 

No doubt about it, dynamic range is a strength of the D800.

Quentin

[eleanorbrown]

With the new slider tools in LR4 it is nearly impossible for to go back to using C1 on any regular basis. Eleanor

And how well the raw converter can extract usable image data from the raw capture...LR4 and ACR 7 raised the bar...

[ErikKaffehr]

Eleanor,

Thanks for the info! So you like the new sliders?

Are you using LR4 on also on your P65+?

Best regards
Erik

With the new slider tools in LR4 it is nearly impossible for to go back to using C1 on any regular basis. Eleanor

[LKaven]

And how well the raw converter can extract usable image data from the raw capture...LR4 and ACR 7 raised the bar...

Could you explain a bit?

[KevinA]

It looks like the D800 is saying to Phase and Hasselblad, "You must try harder", no doubt when it comes down to splitting hairs MF might have an advantage. The only thing MF now has a big advantage/difference is in the way they work. If you prefer to work the way a MF camera makes you work then it might justify the extra dosh......... a little. Then again the MF people have been trying hard to make a camera that handles more like 35mm for sometime now. A nice 6x6cm sensor and a image on a gg screen you look down on in the studio might restore some of the advantage, if portraits are your thing.
The D800 looks to tick a lot of the MF boxes, without the fuss or expense. I think there must be a lot of head scratching at hassy and Phase, if the tech bods can't come up with some very good reasons, it will be left to the marketing bull****ers to come up with them.
Luckily my wishing for a MF system passed me by without me being tempted in investing a house size bank loan to fund one. I actually think the new Canon 1D C could be the way I go, it's versatility could give me more income streams than a MF one trick Pony, no matter how good the trick is. Large quantities of MPs look to be less important in an age when less goes to print or it ends up being cgi'd to within an inch of it's life.
I sold a 1DsIII image today for a 2 meter print, I know it will look great, it would of looked greater on Phase 180 but I would not of got a penny more for it, so what would be the point?
I doubt the 800 is the death of MFD, it will make them think and work harder to provide value for money other than more useless pixels.

Kevin.
A quick tour of the 2012 Olympic site http://youtu.be/TwewnWMDucw

[eleanorbrown]

Erik, I really like the new sliders and use them on the majority of my files and yes I'm using LR4 with the 65+.  Tomorrow I'm driving up to Boulder Colorado to pick up my D800e.  Found one in a camera store there....have been on backorder for one at  b&h for months with no luck.  Look forward to checking out the dynamic range in this camera and processing in LR4. Eleanor

Eleanor,

Thanks for the info! So you like the new sliders?

Are you using LR4 on also on your P65+?

Best regards
Erik

[ErikKaffehr]

Eleanor,

Congratulations to your D800E! I hoped that you already had one, but I understand they are hard to get. Which lenses do you plan to use?

I hope that you the D800E gives you the creamy quality you found with the P65+ and the Leica.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, I really like the new sliders and use them on the majority of my files and yes I'm using LR4 with the 65+.  Tomorrow I'm driving up to Boulder Colorado to pick up my D800e.  Found one in a camera store there....have been on backorder for one at  b&h for months with no luck.  Look forward to checking out the dynamic range in this camera and processing in LR4. Eleanor

[eleanorbrown]

Erik do you have one of the 800 series Nikons?  Don't know if the 800e will have that creamy quality of the 65+ and M9 or not but I will find out soon enough.  I haven't had a DSLR that shoots RGB in years so I'm looking forward to the portability and auto focus!  I have the 14-24, 35 1.4G, 50 1.4G, and Zeiss Makro 100 F2 manual focus. Eleanor

Eleanor,

Congratulations to your D800E! I hoped that you already had one, but I understand they are hard to get. Which lenses do you plan to use?

I hope that you the D800E gives you the creamy quality you found with the P65+ and the Leica.

Best regards
Erik

[marcmccalmont]

Erik, I really like the new sliders and use them on the majority of my files and yes I'm using LR4 with the 65+.  Tomorrow I'm driving up to Boulder Colorado to pick up my D800e.  Found one in a camera store there....have been on backorder for one at  b&h for months with no luck.  Look forward to checking out the dynamic range in this camera and processing in LR4. Eleanor

Eleanor
I've been comparing my D800E/Leica R lenses with my IQ180/Rodenstoch HR's and the bottom line is per pixel the D800E is sharper and has more dynamic range, however per frame the IQ180 has it beat, not as much as one would think though. Enjoy the D800E and consider some Leica R's with Leitax adapters to get the most out of your new camera!
Marc

[FredBGG]

Eleanor
I've been comparing my D800E/Leica R lenses with my IQ180/Rodenstoch HR's and the bottom line is per pixel the D800E is sharper and has more dynamic range, however per frame the IQ180 has it beat, not as much as one would think though. Enjoy the D800E and consider some Leica R's with Leitax adapters to get the most out of your new camera!
Marc

More dynamic range.... in most cases more important than the slight gain in sharpness with 60MP or 80MP sensors with lower dynamic range.

[eleanorbrown]

Thanks for the suggestion Marc. I do have the Zeiss 100 2 makro that I've been using on my D5100 and this is one of the best lenses I've ever used! After waiting months for a D800e on backorder at B&H with no luck, I drove to Boulder colorado yesterday to get a D800e. Turned out to be defective and had to return it and get back on their wait list...talk about a bummer! Eleanor

Eleanor
I've been comparing my D800E/Leica R lenses with my IQ180/Rodenstoch HR's and the bottom line is per pixel the D800E is sharper and has more dynamic range, however per frame the IQ180 has it beat, not as much as one would think though. Enjoy the D800E and consider some Leica R's with Leitax adapters to get the most out of your new camera!
Marc

[marcmccalmont]

Thanks for the suggestion Marc. I do have the Zeiss 100 2 makro that I've been using on my D5100 and this is one of the best lenses I've ever used! After waiting months for a D800e on backorder at B&H with no luck, I drove to Boulder colorado yesterday to get a D800e. Turned out to be defective and had to return it and get back on their wait list...talk about a bummer! Eleanor

Try Jim Lackey at Brightscreen he might have one (800) 235-2451
Marc

[ErikKaffehr]

Eleanor,

I have no Nikons, unfortunately, I'm still using Sony. The reason I asked about the creamy quality is really that I'd think it has to do with sensor size. So I guessed that your Nikon would have the same potential as the Leica in that area. But you obviously didn't get your Nikon. One of the places I buy stuff here in Sweden semt to have a couple of D800Es yesterday but not so today. I hope you get the D800E soon and that you will be satisfied with your images.

I was actually considering to switch to Nikon when the D800 arrived, as I feel that Sony is not moving in the direction I want to see, at least not fast enough. But I have a decent investment in decent Sony stuff, so I decided not to take the plunge.

Best regards
Erik

Erik do you have one of the 800 series Nikons?  Don't know if the 800e will have that creamy quality of the 65+ and M9 or not but I will find out soon enough.  I haven't had a DSLR that shoots RGB in years so I'm looking forward to the portability and auto focus!  I have the 14-24, 35 1.4G, 50 1.4G, and Zeiss Makro 100 F2 manual focus. Eleanor

[AldoMurillo]

The only thing MF now has a big advantage/difference is in the way they work.

I had a H4D-40 for almost two years, and I can say that the leaf shutter lenses alone are a big reason for using MFD.  I've tried everything to get the same high speed sync on nikon/canon systems with no luck. The 35mm "solutions" are no practical at all (ND filters, Canon/nikon flashes, HSS transmitters etc etc).

Yesterday I was doing a shot in the afternoon and I wanted a shallow DOF look with strobes, I was using a 5D mark II, ISO 100, 1/160, f/11. With the H4D-40 I could've made it happened with ISO 100, 1/800, f/5... and f/5 DOF I something like f/2.8-3.5 in 35mm. Of course getting a wider DOF in MFD it's harder. 

- Also true focus It's so much faster than a multi-point AF sensor, it really works, made my life simpler.
- Another clear differentiator is how they render color, I really hate canon magenta tint on skin tones, but of course you can fix it in post or with something like colorchecker passport, but getting a natural/real color from the beginning it's a time saver.

But LR4 is a game changer for me, you can recover the highlights and shadows in a more pleasant and natural look, I feel like my 5D mark II suddenly had a dynamic range update 

[FredBGG]

I had a H4D-40 for almost two years, and I can say that the leaf shutter lenses alone are a big reason for using MFD.  I've tried everything to get the same high speed sync on nikon/canon systems with no luck. The 35mm "solutions" are no practical at all (ND filters, Canon/nikon flashes, HSS transmitters etc etc).

Yesterday I was doing a shot in the afternoon and I wanted a shallow DOF look with strobes, I was using a 5D mark II, ISO 100, 1/160, f/11. With the H4D-40 I could've made it happened with ISO 100, 1/800, f/5... and f/5 DOF I something like f/2.8-3.5 in 35mm. Of course getting a wider DOF in MFD it's harder. 

- Also true focus It's so much faster than a multi-point AF sensor, it really works, made my life simpler.
- Another clear differentiator is how they render color, I really hate canon magenta tint on skin tones, but of course you can fix it in post or with something like colorchecker passport, but getting a natural/real color from the beginning it's a time saver.

But LR4 is a game changer for me, you can recover the highlights and shadows in a more pleasant and natural look, I feel like my 5D mark II suddenly had a dynamic range update 

In the situation you mentioned above you could have synced with the Canon at 1/250@F9. To open up to f/5 all you would need is a 1.5ND filter and more flash power.
Both solutions have their advantages. One requires investing more on the camera while the other more on lights.

Phase One offers both leaf and focal plane shutters as well as being able to mount older Mamiya and Hasselblad lenses. Best range of shutter options .. focal plane
up to 1/4000th and LS to 1/1600th syc (slower on some backs).

Both Canon and Nikon have leaf shutter know how and rumor has it that they are developing LS lens options for their SLRs.
There is also an adapter company working on a tilt shift adapter that supports leaf shutter adapting Hasselblad lenses to Nikon.
Leica figured it out so It's likely these guys may too.

Regarding color with both Canon and Nikon a lot has to do with the raw conversion. Adobe's standard color profiles are far to punchy. Just setting Adobe Camera Raw to Camera Natural
is a vast improvement.

I do agree LR4 is a big step forward.

[alon]

Eleanor
I've been comparing my D800E/Leica R lenses with my IQ180/Rodenstoch HR's and the bottom line is per pixel the D800E is sharper and has more dynamic range, however per frame the IQ180 has it beat, not as much as one would think though. Enjoy the D800E and consider some Leica R's with Leitax adapters to get the most out of your new camera!
Marc

Marc, I would question your tech setup as this is not the case with my comparisons. Are you sure you have your Rodenstock lenses with camera calibrated properly? What tech camera platform are you using? I also feel  most people here are overating the dynamic range of D800. At any rate, at least Marc is doing his own testing which I feel is more important than assuming others statements are factual.

[Don Libby]

At any rate, at least Marc is doing his own testing which I feel is more important than assuming others statements are factual.

Very wise thought.  When it matters the most trust the tests you have done yourself versus others who you might not know.

[jeremypayne]

also feel  most people here are overating the dynamic range of D800

Sorry, but your feelings are irrelevant.

The data is the data ... Feelings play no role here.

[eleanorbrown]

Marc I would be curious to see the results of a test if someone put the same focal length lens on the 800e and the IQ180 (these devices both have near equivalent pixel size/um) and shot the same scene, then cropped the 180 file to the size of the 800e and compared the files...sort of a pixel for pixel comparison (hope I'm making sense here!).  Both lenses must be of equivalent high quality with equivalent RAW processing.  Over the years I've had 4 Phase One backs (currently a P65+) and they have all had this wonderful creamy smooth quality and incredible micro contrast at base iso, beginning with the P25 years ago.  I'm wondering if the 800e will have this smooth quality at base iso too...don't know....is this super smooth quality a result of a CCD sensor or not?  Can a CMOS sensor achieve this same super smooth creamy tonal transitions??  I should get my 800e next week so guess I'll see :-) ? Eleanor

Eleanor
I've been comparing my D800E/Leica R lenses with my IQ180/Rodenstoch HR's and the bottom line is per pixel the D800E is sharper and has more dynamic range, however per frame the IQ180 has it beat, not as much as one would think though. Enjoy the D800E and consider some Leica R's with Leitax adapters to get the most out of your new camera!
Marc

[LKaven]

Marc I would be curious to see the results of a test if someone put the same focal length lens on the 800e and the IQ180 (these devices both have near equivalent pixel size/um) and shot the same scene, then cropped the 180 file to the size of the 800e and compared the files...[...]....is this super smooth quality a result of a CCD sensor or not?  Can a CMOS sensor achieve this same super smooth creamy tonal transitions??

Compared in 24x36mm sizes, the D800E sensor will beat the IS180 sensor hands down.  There is no special character to the CCD or the CMOS, and as much as Phase One tries to improve on the CCD, the read noise is much higher than for the CMOS Exmor. 

Where you get the benefits is in the extra sensor real-estate, coupled with the correspondingly higher number of pixels.  In typical applications, when the IQ180 output is downsampled to print size, there are secondary effects in (i) noise reduction, (ii) anti-aliasing, and (iii) increased dynamic range per print pixel. 

I think you will find the D800/E to be very smooth.  The read noise at base ISO is negligible, yielding very clean blacks and smooth gradations.  With good profiling, the colors are outstanding.