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Author Topic: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!  (Read 9414 times)

henrikfoto

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I made a test today. Just a private comparison. Both the Phase one 120 macro and the old Zeiss 105 S-Orthoplanar.
This is a lens that was used in enlargers.

Both lenses were used with a Leaf Aptus 12 digital back. The test-chart was taped to the wall and aligned with the camera.
This is not a scientific test, but the results are very clear?

Leaf Capture with normal sharpening and no sharpening in Photoshop. Both lenses were focused with live focus and focus assist.


Henrik
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:46:54 am by henrikfoto »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 01:09:47 pm »

I made a test today. Just a private comparison. Both the Phase one 120 macro and the old Zeiss 105 S-Orthoplanar.
This is a lens that was used in enlargers.

Both lenses were used with a Leaf Aptus 12 digital back. The test-chart was taped to the wall and aligned with the camera.
This is not a scientific test, but the results are very clear?

Leaf Capture with normal sharpening and no sharpening in Photoshop. Both lenses were focused with live focus and focus assist.


Henrik


Yes, the results are clear - it seems the Phase One 120mm is not in focus and you shot it at f22?


Steve Hendrix
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 04:08:16 pm »

It is in 100% focus, but these lines are very thin. It is shot at f5,6.
I have shot many different objects also. The old Zeiss lens is better in all macro.

I think any test between these lenses will confirm that.

Anybody who has tested the S-Orthoplanars know they are better than modern lenses in macro.

Henrik
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 04:22:53 pm by henrikfoto »
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Gigi

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 04:35:26 pm »

what did you shoot this with? It may be that the lens has need for an adjustment, and is not truly in focus. It seems unlikely that a new Schneider lens would yield these results; its not been my experience with them at all.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 04:49:50 pm »

Well, some old lenses are very good. Henrik says the images are focused with LV and in correct focus.

The test does not actually prove the old Zeiss is better than the Schneider only that it is sharper at the point of focus.

Best regards
Erik

It is in 100% focus, but these lines are very thin. It is shot at f5,6.
I have shot many different objects also. The old Zeiss lens is better in all macro.

I think any test between these lenses will confirm that.

Anybody who has tested the S-Orthoplanars know they are better than modern lenses in macro.

Henrik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 05:03:34 pm »

what did you shoot this with? It may be that the lens has need for an adjustment, and is not truly in focus. It seems unlikely that a new Schneider lens would yield these results; its not been my experience with them at all.

The 120 Macro is not a Schneider lens at all.

Henrik
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 05:13:45 pm »

Well, some old lenses are very good. Henrik says the images are focused with LV and in correct focus.

The test does not actually prove the old Zeiss is better than the Schneider only that it is sharper at the point of focus.

Best regards
Erik


I tried the same with Hasselblad 135 mm macro cf. It was less sharp than the Phase macro.
But the 105mm S-Orthoplanar is much sharper than the Phase one 120 macro even a long way from the center.
This is a Phase/Mamiya MF lens latest version.

S-Orthoplanar 105 is a very spesial lens. I have tested it before with a 22 mp back against Schneider and Rodenstock digital macro-lenses. The results were the same. I don't know much about lens-constructions,
but I think it is strange that this old lens is still unbeatable..

Henrik
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EricWHiss

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 05:17:30 pm »

1) Schneider didn't make the lenses for the Phase DF nor solely design them...only consulted in the design.
2) The old Zeiss macros such as the 120mm sold in many systems including the Hasselblad and Rollei resolve very fine detail indeed and hold up well in a test like this.  They just flare more and may or may not suffer from axial chromatic aberration when used with digital sensors instead of film.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 05:22:48 pm »

The 120 Macro is not a Schneider lens at all.

Henrik


Henrik -

What are the dimensions of the object (lines) you have pictured? Unless it is extremely, extremely tiny, without even looking at the Hasselblad result, it appears not typical of the Phase One 120mm lens performance.

FWIW, and not that it matters here - stating that Schneider "consulted" on the Schneider lenses pretty significantly understates their actual involvement.


Steve Hendrix
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gerald.d

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 03:13:08 am »

There's an old Zeiss 105 S-Orthoplanar on eBay right now if anyone wants to purchase one.

For $8,000.
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 03:44:01 am »


Henrik -

What are the dimensions of the object (lines) you have pictured? Unless it is extremely, extremely tiny, without even looking at the Hasselblad result, it appears not typical of the Phase One 120mm lens performance.

FWIW, and not that it matters here - stating that Schneider "consulted" on the Schneider lenses pretty significantly understates their actual involvement.


Steve Hendrix


Hi Steve!

All 13 lines together is about 4mm wide.
I use the MF macro for DF a lot and am very happy with the lens, but it's not as good as the S-Orthoplanar.
The S-Orthoplanar 105 does not fill a 80mp sensor. I would guess the perfect back for this lens would be
about 40x40mm. But with this resolution I don't mind a little cropping.

Henrik
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FredBGG

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 08:59:27 pm »

The Zeiss 105 S-Orthoplanar is a very special lens.

My Black and White printer in Italy had one and the prints that came from that lens were
simply lovely. I've always toyed with the ideal of getting one, but I've never seen one at an affordable price.

Printing 35mm or crops from 120 was like taking the "second pass through glass" (the enlarger lens) out of the equation.
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S@W

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 07:18:38 am »

The 120mm macro Mamiya lens is my sharpest lens (sharper at close focusing distance than my 150mm f2.8 and 120mm Schneider T/S).
Tested with an IQ180, tethered and with many, many iterations of focus bracketing.
Maybe the Zeiss is even sharper, don't know, but the 120mm Mamiya macro is already so good that it's a rather cheap must have anyway.

henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 08:53:50 am »

Agree. It is very good. But at 5.6 I think the TS120mm is slightly sharper.

By the way: Does your TS-lens work with focus-confirmation?

Henrik
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S@W

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 04:46:59 pm »

Nope,
No green dot with that lens  :-\
My dealer let me test and pick the best of the 2 samples he gave me. None was giving focus confirmation but one of those lenses was recognized in C1 metadata, the other not. Strange.

henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 05:09:36 pm »

Nope,
No green dot with that lens  :-\
My dealer let me test and pick the best of the 2 samples he gave me. None was giving focus confirmation but one of those lenses was recognized in C1 metadata, the other not. Strange.


Exactly same as my story!
I finally found out Phase have a bug in the firmware. Thats why the fucus confirmation doesn't work.
They are working on it now. New firmware is coming any day now. It's very difficult to focus this lens perfectly without this confirmation. A120mm lens with a sweetspot at 5,6 gives very little room to play in.

Henrik
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2012, 10:05:07 am »

I made a test today. Just a private comparison. Both the Phase one 120 macro and the old Zeiss 105 S-Orthoplanar.
This is a lens that was used in enlargers.

Both lenses were used with a Leaf Aptus 12 digital back. The test-chart was taped to the wall and aligned with the camera.
This is not a scientific test, but the results are very clear?

Leaf Capture with normal sharpening and no sharpening in Photoshop. Both lenses were focused with live focus and focus assist.


Henrik
This does not really tell us anything...
Is the Phase macro "optimised" for 1:1 to infinity or what?
What size was the test chart?
What were the magnification ratios?

The Schneider 120 macro is recommended for subjects up to about A3, but I think this is only because they do not do a "studio" lens... nothing between their macro and their "landscape" lens? ... so a "studio" (1:1 to infinity) lens like the Hasselblad 120 macro (or an enlarger lens) might perform better than either at A3 subject size?
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Stefan.Steib

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2012, 03:40:48 am »

There are several "old" lenses that are still state of the art when it comes to Macro:

Rodenstock Apo Ronar 150 - not expensive, hard to beat for price and quality relation.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RODENSTOCK-APO-RONAR-9-150-SYNCHRO-COMPUR-/261005677977?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Objektive&hash=item3cc5269599

Nikon Apo -EL 105 - "If" you get one grab it !  
http://www.ebay.de/itm/NIKON-APO-EL-NIKKOR-f5-6-105-mm-Legendary-enlarger-lens-RARE-A-Mint-/230816858242?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Objektive&hash=item35bdc1c082

Zeiss Jena Apo Germinar 150 and 240mm - well also our brothers in Ex GDR knew how to make spectacular lenses- I have the 150mm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Apo-Germinar-9-240mm-9228053-/280904288680?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item41673349a8

And of course Henriks proposal : The Orthoplanar 105
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-S-Orthoplanar-5-6-105mm-5595191-Mint-/280884101727?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item4165ff425f

There are some more , but of course this is all non AF non exif and non comfort for people used to just press the button and wait the camera does the rest.
on the other hand if you take the time and properly set these lenses they will blow you away............

 ;)

Greetings from Kiev
Stefan
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 04:54:48 am by Stefan.Steib »
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ced

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 04:33:25 am »

Henrik I would have expected the size be different on the end result of each image due to the differing focal lengths here they are shown same size and the 120 looks as if it had camera shake.
Just my observation...
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One 120 macro looses against old Zeiss glass? Mini-test!
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 09:44:45 am »

Henrik I would have expected the size be different on the end result of each image due to the differing focal lengths here they are shown same size and the 120 looks as if it had camera shake.
Just my observation...


The 105 and the 120 is used from the same point and at the same tripod.
The pic from the 105 is therefore slightly more zoomed than the 120.

The cameras were fired with cable. The 120 with mirror lock-up and the
105 on a Hcam which give close to 0 vibrations. A fantastic camera!

Henrik
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