MF suggestions for portrait and landscape photographer and 10k budget

[rcdurston]

Hi All
Most of my work comes from advertising agencies in the form of travel and portrait based imagery for advertising, mostly outdoor print, billboards, brochure and some web. I have been shooting almost all on 35mm DSLR and I have been reasonably happy up until the past year. That's when I started shooting film again, first for myself then for clients through a Mamiya RZ(non D version). I have used an RZ for over 20 years on and off and I'm very happy with the operation and optics.
My question is, if you had a budget of "around" $10k what would you get? Mamiya 645 kit with a 22 or 28mp Leaf or Phase back or would you cobble together something with the RZ system? I have a RZ 50mm ULD lens that I use mostly and on 35 I'm alway shooting wide or ultra wide.
I'm just not sure which way to go. I like the idea of 1/1600 sync with the LS lenses and some of the older Mamiya fast glass stop down lenses like the 80mm 1.9 and 200mm 2.8.
Suggestions?

thanks in advance
R

[torger]

Maybe a second hand digital back and adapter for your RZ. Could be considerably less than $10K. Leaf Aptus 22 and Aptus 75 have good price/performance ratio on the second hand market. Integration are not as supersmooth as with newer digital platforms, but if you're used to film it will be a lot smoother anyway. Note that a 48x36mm sensor is a lot smaller than 6x7 film (56x70mm) though so you might not get the look you'd like. The crop will be 1.5, so you need to stand farther away to get the same framing and will then get a longer depth of field. 110mm f/2.8 on digital will look like ~170mm f/4 would have looked at 6x7 film.

[Doug Peterson]

Hi All
Most of my work comes from advertising agencies in the form of travel and portrait based imagery for advertising, mostly outdoor print, billboards, brochure and some web. I have been shooting almost all on 35mm DSLR and I have been reasonably happy up until the past year. That's when I started shooting film again, first for myself then for clients through a Mamiya RZ(non D version). I have used an RZ for over 20 years on and off and I'm very happy with the operation and optics.
My question is, if you had a budget of "around" $10k what would you get? Mamiya 645 kit with a 22 or 28mp Leaf or Phase back or would you cobble together something with the RZ system? I have a RZ 50mm ULD lens that I use mostly and on 35 I'm alway shooting wide or ultra wide.
I'm just not sure which way to go. I like the idea of 1/1600 sync with the LS lenses and some of the older Mamiya fast glass stop down lenses like the 80mm 1.9 and 200mm 2.8.
Suggestions?

The major issue with the RZ will be the effective focal length when using the smaller-than-6x7 sensor.

This Digital Transitions Visualizer tool can help you visualize what a particular lens focal length will look like with the digital back. For instance here is a screen grab using that Visualizer which shows:

[RZ with film and a 50mm lens] vs. [RZ with DM22 back and a 28mm lens]


Note of course that there is no such thing as a 28mm lens on an RZ. Which is the point; you cannot get very wide with a digital back on an RZ, even with the larger sensor backs. For portraits I think the RZ is a great digital-back option. You get an (optional) waist-level-viewfinder, interesting and very inexpensive lenses, and the option to shoot vertical without turning the camera, and native flash sync at 1/400 (not as fast as a V, H, or DF system, but still pretty good for most applications). But for landscape (for shooters who prefer a wide/sweeping field of view) it's basically a non-starter.

Based on your brief explanation of your potential uses, it sounds like you'll be better off with one of the backs that has a larger sensor (e.g. a 1.1 crop rather than 1.3 crop).

So based on your budget and needs it sounds like a DM22 fits the bill quite nicely. We have a demo DM22+DF+80LS lens kit which would be well under your budget. In fact you'd only be a bit shy of having enough budget remaining to add a Cambo Wide DS and 35XL lens (which has enough image-circle to stitch a two-frame shot to get to the same field-of-view as a 50mm with 6x7 film, and bring the image resolution to around 35mp). The DF body would be your tool-of-choice when shooting portraits (flash sync at 1/1600, autofocus, autoexposure) and the DS would be a killer tool (given your budget) for sweeping landscapes. Alternatively you could stick with just the DF body and use the extra budget for a 28mm or 35mm lens. Additional few older Mamiya lenses could be added for a few hundred dollars each (they would be limited in flash sync, the oldest generation would have to manually stopped down and focused, and the performance is a little lower than the latest/greatest lenses from Phase/Schneider, but they can help fill out your kit).

Notably that kit would come with full dealer support, which, as you wade into the waters of medium format digital for the first time, can save you a lot of headaches, hassle, and issues.

If you could stretch your budget just a tad a DM33 would also be a good option. As would for example a P25+ or P45 non-plus.

[Doug Peterson]

In my above post I forgot to make a disclaimer since I haven't seen you in the section of the forum much: my company, Digital Transitions, sells Phase and Mamiya Leaf but NOT Hassy, Leica, Pentax.

The Pentax 645 or maybe a pre-owned Hassy H3D is another place to look for a medium format solution in that price range. Each has some advantages and disadvantages compared to the DM22 kit I suggested. I only didn't mention them because it's become our policy (from years of experience on the forums) that it's best not to make comments about products you don't sell (because of the inherent bias). So hopefully someone else can chime in about those solutions.

Though, biased or not, I do honestly think a [DM22 + DF + 80LS + Cambo + 35XL + Dealer Support] kit is about as good as it gets for a system around your budget for landscape/portrait, especially if fast-flash-sync is important.

[epines]

There's someone on the LuLa "for sale" forum who's recently been selling a slightly used H3D-39 II for around $8K U.S., which is a good deal. It's a great system. 39 MP, sync up to 1/800s, nice rich files, excellent lenses, wide options up to 28mm, great zooms, nice ergonomics and feel to the system, plenty of rental options, etc.

[aboudd]

Pentax 645D kit, as long as you do not need high flash sync speed is the ticket for you and a new firmware update, for purchase, now supports tethering, so studio use has been enhanced. There is a complete kit for sale on FM for around $12,000. I saw it posted this morning. I had the 645D, it was a great field camera. Write speed is a bit slow however, so if that is critical for your work, you may not like it. I've attached a shot I took on Hawai'i in April. Color rendering is great and sharpness on most of their lenses is excellent. The other caveat is that there are few new lenses designed for the sensor, but given your small (for MF) budget, I really think this is a strong choice.

[shadowblade]

I'd get a Nikon D800e with some nice lenses.

It'll beat any digital MF system you can get for $10k - particularly if you like to shoot your landscapes wide (for which there are precious few options in MF - 28mm on a 44mm or 48mm-wide sensor really isn't wide at all).

[aboudd]

There is more to MF than megapixel count. Until you've shot the D800E against any MF digital in the field, same shot, same lighting conditions and compared the results the statement is without foundation. You cannot go by shots posted on-line. You must evaluate from the RAW images. Secondly, Pentax makes a 25MM for the Pentax 645D, that is equivalent to a 19MM on FX format, Leica make a 30MM, equivalent to a 24MM, so wides do exist. Admittedly they are expensive lenses and will push this person past the $10,000 threshold, but they are available.

[FredBGG]

The Mamiya RZ is a fine camera despite being old now.
However shooting on it with a digital back will be shooting with a severe crop and you will lose the look of the larger capture area.

Your wide angle coverage would be cut about in half.

I would not recommend the 645DF. Not a reliable enough system to have just one body, so it wan't fit your budget.

I would recommend simply adding the D800E to your Mamiya with film.

You would have the best of both worlds. Or maybe Go with the D800E and a 4x5 camera seeing you know how to shoot film.

I decioded to drop MFD and stick to shooting film in larger formats... (Fuji gx680 and 8x10) and D800 digital.

D800 digital is very close to the quality of an IQ180 and on par with entry level MFD.

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/

But with the D800 you have way more selection in lenses, several tilt shift lenses and far better speed, low light, focusing etc etc etc.

With your budget you could add a D800 and a basic 4x5 system to what you have already.

[FredBGG]

How about wide angle tilt and shift.....

Very little choice for MF

Canon starts at 17mm with tilt and shift.

[aboudd]

Unfortunately that is the case proving that no one camera can fit all needs. Leica announced an Elmar 30 shift lens with the introduction of the S2 but it is still not in the production pipeline.

[Gandalf]

I'd get a Nikon D800e with some nice lenses.

What he said. I went through this same thing recently and came to the conclusion that you really can't get MFD kit for under $10k without getting into some major compromises. It seems to me that until you hit about $15k or above, you are better off staying with DSLRs. That said, your situation is a little different and it may make sense to pickup a back for the RZ and then maybe add 645D with a 28 or 35. Even that alone puts you way over $10k, but it is something to consider.

Hasselblad is pretty expensive as a system. Sure, you can pick up a H3D with an 80 for around $10k, but that doesn't help much when lenses are around $3k+ each. The Pentax 645D is the camera that I want, or more honestly that I want to want. It is a great body without lenses and without a known upgrade path. It seems like an expensive gamble.

Right now I feel like the industry is at a bit of a tipping point. DSLRs are eating MFD's lunch, not because of quality, but because of usability, client budgets and client needs. If I had to take a gamble, I would bet (hope?) that we will start seeing MFD bodies with the type of usability we are seeing in the IQ and Credo backs. Already in DSLR land the D800 has left Canon and Sony in a bit of a pickle. I'm in a position where I can sit in the cheap seats and watch it all unfold for at least a couple more months before I have to pay my money and take my chances.

Being totally honest here, for what you are asking, I think I would put that $10k toward a Canon 5D2 or 5D3 with a 17 T/S and 24 T/S II and keep the rest of your system as is since it sounds like it is working for you. As far as the difference in file and color quality between a D800 and MFD, I can't comment, but I can tell you the difference in color and file quality between an Aptus II-7 with a Mamiya 28 and a D700 with a 14-24 or 5DII with a 17-40 or 17 T/S is subtle, but IMO significant. I own none of the above, but have retouched shots where I can directly compare them. The color rendering is totally different.

[ndevlin]

Doug's suggestions are sound, but I wouldn't get a tech camera without being really sure you liked that mode of working.  You can also get some great deals for under $10K on things like a 39MP Hassy. The 645D is also excellent, if its limitations suit you, and it handles miles better than any other MFDSRL.  Used 22MP backs are more in the $5 range these days, though you need to add a body.

All that said, I traded/sold my 645D for a D800E kit (and quite a bit of change in the bank).  The quality is really close and D800E just *works*. It focuses everytime and can make images in the dark. 

The upshot is that you have to try these cameras out for yourself. 

Happy shooting.

- N.   

[Gandalf]

then maybe add 645D with a 28 or 35.

Meant to say 645AFD -- Mamiya/Phase. Not 645D as in Pentax.

[John.Williams]

Recent sales of pre-owned H3DII-39 and H3DII-31 are in/below your budget figure; these are kits with the 80mm f/2.8 lens.

Some pre-owned H4D-31 kits at 10% above your budget for reference on the focal-plane-lock technology (focus, then recompose - camera maintains original point of focus in final capture.)

John

[rjkern]

I started off with the PhaseOne 645DF and a refurbished P30+ back and really enjoyed it, but found checking critical focus was a pain.

I upgraded to the PhaseOne IQ 140 and a 55m LS lens along with a V-Grip air and really enjoy the process, especially when shooting MF digital portraits.

Here's a post I think you might enjoy
http://www.kern-photo.com/index.php/2012/08/einstein-640-vs-profoto-d1-w-phaseone-iq-head-to-head

Cheers,

RJ