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Author Topic: Arbitrary limitations in camera software  (Read 7076 times)

Chris Pollock

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Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« on: May 23, 2012, 07:06:35 am »

I bought a 5D Mark III shortly after they went on sale, and have been fairly satisfied with it, apart from the lack of improvement in sensor technology. It does indeed fix most of the things that were wrong with the 5D Mark II. It seems like Canon just can't resist the urge to put stupid limitations on some features, however. Following are a few of the more egregious examples that I've noticed.

The 5D Mark II had an auto ISO mode, but it was so badly implemented that it was worse than useless. It would adjust the ISO to keep the minimum shutter speed at 1/focal length, e.g. 1/200 second for a 200 mm lens. With modern sensors that's not even fast enough to avoid blurring due to camera shake (although people who don't drink coffee may get better results) and utterly useless for any kind of action photography, which is what you'd typically want auto ISO for.

As I was reading the 5D Mark III manual I came to the heading "Setting the Minimum Shutter Speed for Auto ISO" and thought "Great, they've fixed that stupid design flaw." Alas, it was not to be. The next line explained that you can indeed set the minimum shutter speed - from 1/250 second to 1 second. I honestly can't understand how a camera designer thought 1/250 second is the highest shutter speed that anyone would need. It's not even fast enough to hand-hold a lot of lenses.

A nice feature on the 5D Mark III is the electronic level. Displayed on the rear LCD, it eliminates the need for a spirit level. It can also be displayed in the viewfinder, which makes it a lot easier to keep hand-held shots level. There are two stupid problems with the VF level implementation, however. The first is that there doesn't seem to be a way to turn it on permanently. You have to press a button to turn it on, and it disappears as soon as you half-press the shutter button. The second is that you need to use the custom controls to assign a button to the VF level, and the only ones that you can use are the DOF preview and the M-Fn buttons. Both of these buttons already perform useful functions that I'd really rather not lose. The * button on my camera isn't doing anything, but it won't let me use it.

A useful improvement over the 5D Mark II is that automatic exposure bracketing now supports up to 7 shots, with from 1/3 to 3 stops between each shot. This is of course invaluable for HDR. Having said that, why stop at 7 shots? Nikon apparently allow 9, and I can think of no technical reason not to allow an arbitrary number. This can already be done with some third party remote controls.

Finally, why is the maximum timed exposure limited to 30 seconds? The camera is capable of far longer in bulb mode, and allowing the user to set a longer exposure should be a trivial change. Obviously this isn't a new limitation, but why keep it? Occasionally people do want to expose longer than 30 seconds.

What all these limitations have in common is that they don't appear to save any money, and result entirely from poor software design. They could perhaps be fixed by a firmware update. I have a feeling that Canon will not do so, however.

Perhaps other people would like to share their favourite gripes about their equipment?
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torger

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 07:36:44 am »

Camera manufacturers, perhaps especially the Japanese, are known for being extremely conservative concerning features. It is extremely rare that new features are introduced in firmware updates (only bugfixes).

Software features are also used as a differentiator, dumb limitations in auto-iso or bracketing etc can be a way to limit a cheaper model to make it more desirable to upgrade to a more expensive model. Thus the poor design is in many cases deliberate.

And there's overall conservatism not change to much from one generation to another, new cameras should continue to work almost exactly the same as the old. We still have jpeg histograms in nikon and canon cameras although many users have wanted to have raw ones for years, in fact the whole camera UI is designed around shooting JPEG primarily although it is very common to shoot RAW only.

A simple configurable "policy engine" for controlling the ISO/shutter/aperture combination in auto modes in relation to lenses and shooting style etc is something that I really miss in these cameras, but I guess we won't see it for a while still. The second best if it is not too bright light I think is to shoot manual mode with auto-ISO (set desired DOF with aperture and action-stopping with shutter speed and let auto-ISO take care of exposure adjustments). At least they fixed that from 5Dmk2 to mk3 (auto ISO did not work in manual mode on 5Dmk2, and of course they did not fix it in firmware upgrade, the solution is to buy a 5Dmk3...)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 07:45:49 am by torger »
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marcmccalmont

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 07:57:55 am »

As I'm going through my D800E set up, I ask myself why am I fumbling through menus with poor descriptions when I should be setting my camera up on the computer with a sensible UI (with a help menu) and either downloading these settings via USB or via a memory card? It's 2012! And whats with all these buttons covering the entire camera surface? Again it's 2012!
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

stamper

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 08:01:07 am »

Camera manufacturers, perhaps especially the Japanese, are known for being extremely conservative concerning features. It is extremely rare that new features are introduced in firmware updates (only bugfixes).

Unquote

They save the new features for newer models. You can't realistically expect new features once you have spent your money on a certain model of camera?

stamper

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 08:03:11 am »

As I'm going through my D800E set up, I ask myself why am I fumbling through menus with poor descriptions when I should be setting my camera up on the computer with a sensible UI (with a help menu) and either downloading these settings via USB or via a memory card? It's 2012! And whats with all these buttons covering the entire camera surface? Again it's 2012!
Marc

All the major cameras have books written about them. Purchasing one of them will help. I don't know if there is one written for the d800 yet?

torger

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 08:04:06 am »

They save the new features for newer models. You can't realistically expect new features once you have spent your money on a certain model of camera?

Medium format digital back makers actually do introduce significant new features in firmware. On the other hand they usually have more experimental first releases than DSLR manufacturers do too, so some of the new features should really have been there in the first place.
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stamper

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 08:17:19 am »

These cameras are vastly more expensive than a DSLR. I think this is comparing apples and oranges. When a camera manufacturer releases a new model DSLR on the market then the next model is on the "drawing board" and they have a set of features mapped out. Therefore they don't want to include them in a firmware up date for free when they are obviously a selling point for a newer model?

stever

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 09:33:44 am »

the camera manufacturers may be slow to implement useful (to serious photographers) features on high-end SLRs but there seem to be no shortage of useless menu-cluttering "scene modes" and such like crap on lesser cameras
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Chris Pollock

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 09:59:54 am »

They save the new features for newer models. You can't realistically expect new features once you have spent your money on a certain model of camera?
Actually Canon did add significant improvements to the 5D Mark II's video mode after release via a firmware update.

The 5D Mark III came out a few months ago. I imagine that Canon hope to sell a few more before they discontinue it. Considering how good the D800 is, the 5D Mark III could use all the help it can get. If Canon can make it significantly better at little or no cost, they should do so.

My mention of a firmware update wasn't my main point anyway. They should never have written such pointless limitations into the software to begin with.
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Chris Pollock

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 10:04:20 am »

When a camera manufacturer releases a new model DSLR on the market then the next model is on the "drawing board" and they have a set of features mapped out. Therefore they don't want to include them in a firmware up date for free when they are obviously a selling point for a newer model?
If history is any guide, the successor to the 5D Mark III won't be out for 3 years. I rather doubt that Canon want to deliberately limit the appeal of the camera that they're trying to sell now in the hope that more people will buy the camera that they'll be selling 3 years from now.
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stamper

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 11:28:55 am »

If Canon can make it significantly better at little or no cost, they should do so.

Unquote.

I wouldn't hold my breath thinking about it. :)

Rob C

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 01:13:43 pm »

In my opinion, the problem is greed: the range of models is simply too wide in an attempt to produce a catch-all range of stuff where three models would do: top, middle and base. Or the reverse, depending on where your fancy places you.

It's the same with cars: every model of whatever has a range of options that you usually don't want but have to pay for, the alternative being to wait for months whilst the factory produces to order a more simple, standard version without the added crap that's never used. I won't tire you or myself by running the list of junk on my baby Fiesta; it cost me a fortune but that's because it was in stock, at a known price, in the right colour (imagine: black unavailable, sadly, unless metallic?) and with the right engine/body combination that I was told was not going to be continued. Buying that has also bought me all manner of cooling systems I hate; speech control (wanna engage in conversation with or make love to your car?), inlets/outlets for musical appliances I neither have nor want as well as - sorry, I said I wouldn't go there.

But cameras could really give you what you require with three levels of product. I can't believe that Nikon could offer the Nikkormat and the F and satisfy all the world's snappers with a basic product whose value was based upon build and precision. Period. Look at the range today! What the hell is it for if not to scrape every cent off the floor?

Rob C
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 01:16:02 pm by Rob C »
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marcmccalmont

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 06:42:37 am »

All the major cameras have books written about them. Purchasing one of them will help. I don't know if there is one written for the d800 yet?
I guess my main point was why not do all your setup on the computer with a big screen and a qwerty keyboard then download the setup to the camera
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

David Good

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 10:02:49 am »

In my opinion, the problem is greed: the range of models is simply too wide in an attempt to produce a catch-all range of stuff where three models would do: top, middle and base. Or the reverse, depending on where your fancy places you.

But cameras could really give you what you require with three levels of product. I can't believe that Nikon could offer the Nikkormat and the F and satisfy all the world's snappers with a basic product whose value was based upon build and precision. Period. Look at the range today! What the hell is it for if not to scrape every cent off the floor?

Rob C

Very well put Rob, my thinking exactly. I have decided to not feed the greed and ignore my impulse to upgrade unless absolutely necessary. If it ain't broke, it ain't being replaced, in fact, I'm downsizing now. (still using my 5D on a daily basis, yes a Mark III would be nice but not neccessary.....)

Dave
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EduPerez

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2012, 05:40:25 am »

I can give some real examples of features currently implemented in a certain camera (Canon 400D), but hidden in the menus:

  • Spot measurement: menus only display evaluative, partial, and center-weighted metering modes; but the camera can also do spot metering (even the icon is present in the firmware).
  • Custom white balance: again, menus only show several predefined settings (sunny, cloudy, flash, ...); but internally, camera can use a custom-provided color temperature.
  • Safety Shift: camera can do it, but there is no menu entry to activate it.
  • Some other parameters with arbitrary limits (number of shots in AEB, long exposures, self-timer, exposure compensation, ...).

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b2martin

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 07:11:34 am »

The D700, D800, and probably others have the ability to save you settings to the memory card and you can also load settings from the memory card.  The only thing needed to acomplish what you want is software to generate these on the computer.  I do save my settings to the memory card and keep a copy on my computer for future use if required.  See page 335 of the D800 manual (Save/Load Settings). 
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fike

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 10:42:25 am »

I have been hoping that the CHDK would move upmarket to enable us to get these features with a 'jailbreak' of a sort.  They have been able to enable all sorts of features on digicams and lower-end bodies (RAW on digicams, motion detection, intervalometer, video on cams without video, etc...).

A little dose of open source might move these manufacturers in the right direction.
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EduPerez

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 06:23:40 am »

I have been hoping that the CHDK would move upmarket to enable us to get these features with a 'jailbreak' of a sort.  They have been able to enable all sorts of features on digicams and lower-end bodies (RAW on digicams, motion detection, intervalometer, video on cams without video, etc...).

A little dose of open source might move these manufacturers in the right direction.

What exactly do you mean with "...move upmarket..."?
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fike

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 09:09:34 am »

What exactly do you mean with "...move upmarket..."?

I haven't looked for a while at the CHDK, but the highest-end camera I have seen cracked (and only partially) was the 40D. Otherwise the CHDK is generally reserved for canon digicams. I was able to make my G9 into a motion sensing camera and use an intervalometer script.

Here is the last thing I heard about a hack for an SLR. http://chdk.setepontos.com/index.php/topic,2259.0.html
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walter.sk

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Re: Arbitrary limitations in camera software
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 11:51:12 am »

I guess my main point was why not do all your setup on the computer with a big screen and a qwerty keyboard then download the setup to the camera
Marc
One gripe about that:  I have a 1Dii, which I will keep until it dies.  However, accessing its Personal Functions (less used than the Custom Functions) requires being tethered.  However, Canon has seen fit not to upgrade the driver that would allow me to use the camera on Win7, and I have no way to change the choices in the personal functions.

This really ticks me off, as I still see it as $4500 invested in the camera.  
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 01:02:28 pm by walter.sk »
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