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Author Topic: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops  (Read 27601 times)

luxborealis

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 09:58:22 PM »

Phenomenal - truly phenomenal. Now, when will we ever take delivery of a D800e body?!?
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Terry McDonald
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henrikfoto

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 03:24:21 AM »

Hi Marc!

Thanks for posting this!
Can you tell what lenses and what f-stops you used?

Henrik
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torger

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 03:38:16 AM »

Very interesting!

I assume the first is both with 70mm giving similar resolution pixel-wise but smaller FOV with the D800E, and the other is 45mm to give about the same FOV as the IQ180.

My guess would be that it is the Digaron-W 70mm for the IQ180 and the 24-70/2.8 for the Nikon, am I right? I guess one would probably want to use something else than the zoom for high res work, center is sharp but edges have some visible aberrations.
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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 04:38:10 AM »

I've had several PM's asking if the D800E is the equal to the IQ180 with the exception of resolution. Some have asked is the D800E as good as a MFDB or is the D800E intruding into the MFDB territory?
So today is a day off and it's not raining so I took a couple of test shots. All liveview focus, base ISO, WB-daylight, f5.6, Capture One, deconvolution Focusfixer .7, no adjustments other than the highlights slider until no clipping, focused on Tokyo Tower 1000m away. IQ180/WRS/Rodenstock 70mm HR, D800E/Leica 28-90 2.8-4.5R @70mm & 45mm, tripod, cable release and 30# bag hanging from the tripod.
The simple answer is yes the D800E is the equal to if not better than the IQ180 pixel for pixel (of course the IQ180 trumps the D800E in resolution)

now 2 crops at F8.0
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Marc McCalmont
Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 04:39:52 AM »

Very interesting!

I assume the first is both with 70mm giving similar resolution pixel-wise but smaller FOV with the D800E, and the other is 45mm to give about the same FOV as the IQ180.

My guess would be that it is the Digaron-W 70mm for the IQ180 and the 24-70/2.8 for the Nikon, am I right? I guess one would probably want to use something else than the zoom for high res work, center is sharp but edges have some visible aberrations.

#1 correct
#2 Digaron-W 70mm & Leica 28-90 f2.8-4.5R
(according to Erwin Puts 1. the "good" Leica R zooms are sharper than the Leica R primes which are the equal of Leica M primes, and 2. the slower zooms that I have are the equal of the 2.8 zooms when stopped down. The reasoning is with more design flexibility in moving the elements in a zoom you can exceed the performance of a prime. Who am I to question the Tao of Puts!) but both at f5.6 and f8.0 the D800E/Leica is sharper than the IQ180/WRS/Rodenstock HR!
Marc

the next step is to verify infinity focus since the WRS does not allow you to shim the back but the lenses were calibrated to the WRS at the Cambo factory.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 04:53:23 AM by marcmccalmont »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 12:02:57 PM »

Hi Marc,
Thanks for sharing your images with us.   Where I expect the IQ 180 to stand out from the D800 is not in pixel level detail or shadow lifting capability but in color tonality.   I'd love to see a comparison with a macro shot of some flowers or fruit or something where the color changes subtly.    This is where I see huge differences between my 80mp leaf back and the DSLR's.
Thanks,
Eric
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eleanorbrown

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 02:41:20 PM »

I have the D800e on backorder but also have had 4 Phase One backs, beginning with the P25 and now the P65+.  With all these backs  there is a certain "creamy smoothness" to the files at base iso that I've not seen in 35mm at base iso.  How does the 800e compare in the "tonal smoothness" of the files of your IQ180 (pixel for pixel so to speak).  Eleanor

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 03:12:58 PM »

... With all these backs  there is a certain "creamy smoothness" to the files at base iso that I've not seen in 35mm at base iso.  How does the 800e compare in the "tonal smoothness" of the files of your IQ180 (pixel for pixel so to speak).  Eleanor

How does one test and compare for "creamy smoothness"? What would be the proper test subject? This is an open-ended question, btw.

EricWHiss

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2012, 03:32:41 PM »

Slobodan,
It's really an area where the forums fall flat - this qualitative nature of images.   I know what Eleanor is talking about but hard to describe.  I just find the images to have more depth, to feel more real.  I feel the same way about the multishot vs single shot images too using the same camera and lenses.
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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2012, 03:34:08 PM »

Hi Marc,
Thanks for sharing your images with us.   Where I expect the IQ 180 to stand out from the D800 is not in pixel level detail or shadow lifting capability but in color tonality.   I'd love to see a comparison with a macro shot of some flowers or fruit or something where the color changes subtly.    This is where I see huge differences between my 80mp leaf back and the DSLR's.
Thanks,
Eric

I don't have my DF camera or my 120mm macro with me but you are right lots of pixels makes for smoother gradients and you can't always stitch, wind movement etc. But I'm sure this puts pressure on Phase One to up thier game, IQ180+ cmos sensor, rail adc's etc. You've got to admit the D800E sure can hold it's own.
Marc
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 03:50:10 PM »

Slobodan,
It's really an area where the forums fall flat - this qualitative nature of images...

Au contrair, mon ami!

If you can't measure it or express in math formulas, it does not exist! ;)

Here is one formula that would compare the "creaminess":

crème de la crème = 10 x crème (in dollars, euros, etc.)

 ;D

eleanorbrown

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 04:11:13 PM »

I've recently reworked some of my Phase P25 (22 mp files) in lightroom 4 and was reminded of this hard to describe liquid creamy smoothness of the medium format files...and these raw files were from a 22 mg sensor...not near as many pixels as some of the 35mm camera sensors.  Go figure.....!  eleanor

I don't have my DF camera or my 120mm macro with me but you are right lots of pixels makes for smoother gradients and you can't always stitch, wind movement etc. But I'm sure this puts pressure on Phase One to up thier game, IQ180+ cmos sensor, rail adc's etc. You've got to admit the D800E sure can hold it's own.
Marc
Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2012, 04:22:10 PM »

I have the D800e on backorder but also have had 4 Phase One backs, beginning with the P25 and now the P65+.  With all these backs  there is a certain "creamy smoothness" to the files at base iso that I've not seen in 35mm at base iso.  How does the 800e compare in the "tonal smoothness" of the files of your IQ180 (pixel for pixel so to speak).  Eleanor

Eleanor
If you look at the "creamy smooth" (only kidding :) Eric) clouds in the above frames I think the 14 bit D800E files hold there own against the 16 bit Phase files, I really think this camera is something special a turning point in DSLR's
Marc
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eleanorbrown

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2012, 05:08:07 PM »

Thanks Marc...that's great to hear from someone that has both cameras! Just wonder when Nikon will start shipping more of these cameras....Eleanor

Eleanor
If you look at the "creamy smooth" (only kidding :) Eric) clouds in the above frames I think the 14 bit D800E files hold there own against the 16 bit Phase files, I really think this camera is something special a turning point in DSLR's
Marc

Rob C

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2012, 05:34:15 PM »

Eleanor, how impulsive are you prepared to be?

Translation: how many cameras do you really want to collect?

;-)

Rob C

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2012, 12:19:31 AM »

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your images and experience. Also, congratulations to your fine set of Leica R lenses.

Regarding the creamyness of images I'm thinking about two effects, which may actually contradict each other.

1) An MF back has a larger sensor area, so it collects more photons. This would reduce shot noise which would dominate in highlights.

2) MF backs seem to be adjusted to underexpose a bit, according to some interpretation of DxO measurements. That would reduce clipping in highlights, but also increase shot noise.

A third factor is that a Phase One back used with C1 as raw converter has access to a lot of proprietary info from the back. (I think that each raw file contains about 1 MByte of calibration data).

Best regards
Erik

Eleanor
If you look at the "creamy smooth" (only kidding :) Eric) clouds in the above frames I think the 14 bit D800E files hold there own against the 16 bit Phase files, I really think this camera is something special a turning point in DSLR's
Marc
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 12:42:15 AM by ErikKaffehr »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Comparing Apples to Grapefruit IQ180/D800E Crops
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2012, 01:32:26 AM »

I've heard that MF backs use better and more expensive color filters which helps with color rendering, but probably some of you will know if that's true or not. Either way, I'm still seeing better color tonality on my MFDB's.  Have a look at the flower shots on the post your nikon images section on the GetDpi forums - totally flat.  Even my old 2004 vintage phase p20 did better.

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