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Author Topic: Some construction.  (Read 4155 times)

Timprov

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Some construction.
« on: May 16, 2012, 02:12:26 am »

Nobody wanted to talk about my last one, so let's try something different.  Maybe you'll find this more interesting.
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bill t.

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 02:45:10 am »

It invites looking at to figure out what it is.  But it's not a really a satisfying image as is.  There are interesting things in there, but no subject and no particular statement.

Basically, it's a well made informative image but not an artistic one, and we like to think we're artists around here.  :)

If I may suggest, go back to the scene and shoot those many poles from a very low vantage point so they are seen converging outward and upward towards the sky.  Get really close, and really low, and point the camera up.  You may have to lay on the ground or lay the camera on the ground.  Make it look like the poles are exploding up into the sky.  Very abstract.  And keep the image a lot simpler than the one you posted, relatively simple images are usually considered better than ones that are full off lots of different things.  And maybe try closeups of other objects in the scene, viewed from interesting angles.

And it's good you're trying and that have the courage to post.
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popnfresh

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 10:38:24 am »

I can see how the repeating vertical forms of the rebar could be visually attractive, but compositionaly, this shot is too random to be effective. I doubt that a low angle of view would have been much of an improvement, as the bars aren't really long enough to capitalize on that perspective. This is a case where you needed to get in closer and pare down the composition to just the basic elements that caught your attention. As it is there's just too much going on that doesn't serve the whole.
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amolitor

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 10:44:39 am »

Basically any angle of view that does NOT place the rod-ends with their weird fittings at exactly the same height as the dude's head would improve this, I think. Other commenters are right, though, it's too busy, there's no particularly strong visual center. Getting in close and simplifying is one solution, but I'm not convinced it's the only one.

I think there's probably a photograph that is superficially like the one you were trying for here. I'd try varying the point of view up and down. From below place the rod-ends perhaps 1-2 head-heights above the man's head, so it looks a bit like he's in a forest, and try for that fortuitous combination of activity and placement of objects. You might try a shallower depth of field to push the background more into the background -- don't worry about getting anything sharp except the man, I'd suggest. The try it from above, to give the impression of the man working in a field of rods, and again, try for the fortuitous.

Shoot a lot. If you want this one, aim to burn 100 exposures or more, constantly varying where you're standing, how high you're looking at him, and fooling with depth of field a bit (but always shallow). Then pick out the best from the "contact sheet" (that's the real Decisive Moment, you know!)
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Timprov

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 06:05:41 pm »

Please assume that this is the shot I wanted.  I'm confident that if I'd stayed there all day and shot a couple hundred, I'd still have pulled this one as at least worth thinking about.  I'm interested in why you might dislike it, but I don't want to take something completely different.  This is very much congruent with my style, which takes some getting used to in its more complex instances, but does have at least a small audience.

Basically, it's a well made informative image but not an artistic one, and we like to think we're artists around here.  :)

On the theory that art is what you like and nobody else does, I think I'm doing pretty well.   ;D
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amolitor

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 06:58:22 pm »

I'm sorry, do you want us to talk about your images or not?

I'm not being sarcastic, this is a real question, you're sending kind of mixed messages here.
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Tony Jay

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 08:21:07 pm »

Sadly I am beginning to think that not only is your photgraphic style opaque but also your style of prose.

Your explanations regarding your posted images leave us none the wiser.
Perhaps you do know, within yourself, why you shoot the way you do however you have been singularly unsuccessful in clueing us in.

Regards

Tony Jay
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RSL

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 09:16:33 pm »

Sorry, Timprov, but the fact is that there simply isn't any there in this picture. What caused you to shoot it?
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Timprov

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 01:23:04 am »

I'm sorry, do you want us to talk about your images or not?

I'm not being sarcastic, this is a real question, you're sending kind of mixed messages here.


Popnfresh is talking about my image.  Even RSL is talking about my image, though vaguely.  You and Bill are talking about images you would have taken had you been in my situation, which is not remotely useful.  Especially since you both seem to think I can go back, which is bizarre.

Sadly I am beginning to think that not only is your photgraphic style opaque but also your style of prose.

Your explanations regarding your posted images leave us none the wiser.

I haven't offered any explanations, so if you're looking for them, it's no wonder you aren't finding them.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 01:29:16 am by Timprov »
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amolitor

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 09:15:44 am »

Since, apparently, describing how it might be done differently does not permit you to glean my thoughts on the photo, I will be more direct, and address not how you could improve the image, but what is wrong with it. This is less polite, more antagonistic, but it is apparently what you want.

Visually, your image is a jumble of elements. There is no visual center, the eye is not led anywhere and is not permitted to rest anywhere. The upper ends of the verticals run in a loose line across, roughly, everything that's interesting in the frame most notable the man's head. This leads to visual confusion, and requires the eye to expend a little effort to sort out even what's going on. The tonality is uninteresting, managing to be harsh without much drama. The clutter prevents there being any strong purely graphical drama, and using bright highlights and deep shadows to accentuate drama already present in the scene is hopeless, since there isn't any drama in the scene - the one man present seems to be completely relaxed and this is clearly the boring part of some bush-league minor construction project.

In terms of ideas, I don't get anything from this. There's a bunch of stuff in the scene, but given the complete lack of eye-leading and visual center, I can't tell what I'm supposed to be looking at. There's a house and some trees in the background, are they part of the idea, or just in-frame by accident? They're soft, but not thrown out of focus, so I get no help there. The title suggests that perhaps the point is that the man is running the machines by remote control, but there's basically nothing in the scene to support that. There's no obvious driver of the.. whatever it is, but perhaps the driver is somehow out of view. The posture of the man has some slight interest, he does seem intent on something or other near or in front of the machine to the left, but it's not clear what, and there's nothing very definite about it. He's casual enough that he could be thinking about lunch for all we know. And, frankly, so what if he's running a machine by remote control?

Emotionally I don't get any response whatsoever, other than a slight distaste. It feels slightly like a strip mall going up in the suburbs, which is an idea I find distasteful.

The only thing I can think is that this is intended as some conceptual art piece, flying in the face of convention and defying the rules. I don't like sort of thing even when it's well done, and this is not well done.

Edited To Add: Generally when something appears as generally poorly made as this, one can assume either "it's conceptual, it's too complex, and I just don't get it" or you can assume "it's just badly done". Occam's Razor dictates which one should choose, but I will delicately gloss over that result.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:05:35 am by amolitor »
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Bruce Cox

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 06:33:55 pm »

I like the rods, so I thought to make them a little more conspicuous.

Bruce
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 09:27:45 pm »

Hi Tim,

I believe that because this image is meant to have no meaning or cognitive connotations, that the image can therefore be assessed simply by referring to the work surrounding Barthes and the concepts of second order punctum & studium, whereby 'Connotation is a term used to refer to meanings which lie beyond denotation but are more dependent on it' (Dyer, 1992). Within semiotics, denotation and connotation are terms describing the relationship between the signifier and the signified. Connotation is widely linked with secondary meanings in the second order of signification and depends upon context and interpretation. At this stage of the language other metaphoric associations are articulated, such as links with private, personal experiences, implications and suggestions. The denotative point is exploited and used to develop a higher level of meaning; this is where the ideology is first expressed. The term 'connotation' is used to refer to the socio-culture and personal associations (ideological, emotional) of the sign. These are related to traits within the viewer such as class, cultural background, gender, age etc. 'Connotation is regarded as an analogue code' (Wilden, 1987), and is much more open to interpretation as opposed to denotation, the connotative signs are also much more polysemic. Saussure's semiological system concentrated more upon denotation, at the expense of connotation; Barthes gave his own interpretation of the model of the sign some years later. Although viewers draw on their own experiences to reach a conclusion concerning the connotative meaning, connotations are not purely 'personal' meanings; they are determined by the codes to which the interpreter has access. Everyone's belief about particular connotations may differ, when they're own educational background and knowledge is brought into play.

If the above hypothesis is indeed congruent with your intentions, then the answer becomes blatantly obvious, that the image is meant to be completely void of connotative associations, as a method of direct stimuli to the viewer's cognitive and associative beliefs and to become a priori.

But if this hypothetical statement is incongruent, then the image fails because it is unintentionally meaningless rather than intentionally void of connotative associations.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 09:30:18 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 10:05:49 pm »

You guys are kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding!

Rob C

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2012, 03:54:32 am »

You guys are kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding!




No, they are not kidding: it's the basis of all contemporary art schooling. If you do as I did some years ago, remove your brain and soak it overnight in a medium-sized bowl of vinegar, when you pop it back into the head in the morning, everything looks much more clear and you can wallow in a sympathetic glow with the rest of the art community. Or you could teach semiotics - and understand them! Magically, you will be able to so do.

But beware: use only the finest German apple vinegar: the cheaper wine stuff only gives you migraine.  But it's good for cleaning cal from bathroom (and kitchen!) fittings in hard-water districts.

I'm currently popping drops into my eyes to help resolve a condition of dryness; they help whilst they last but feel as if they leave a residue harder than the symptom I stated with. You see here a further example of modern life, how things get better without actually improving. Also like the banks, perhaps.

Don't confuse the apples with the wine!

Rob C

Tony Jay

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2012, 06:02:06 am »

Dave,

I defer to your peerless grasp of the subject(!)
Magnificent stuff.

Regards

Tony Jay
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michswiss

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2012, 10:04:09 am »

Dave,

Could I ask that you please provide the same level of insightful commentary on any image I put forth from this moment on.  As an extra favour, I'd appreciate it you could step back in time and stop me from taking all the crappy shots I've wasted film stock or electrons capturing.  :P

I really should go back to school and study art or philosophy.

amolitor

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 10:18:08 am »

Unfortunately, in order to completely deconstruct your own preconceptions of "art" qua "art" and to annihilate the formalism inherent in your process, you need to take all those crappy photographs, proceed through to making good ones, and then, only then, can you proceed to making the important crappy photographs.
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Rob C

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2012, 11:09:42 am »

Dave,

Could I ask that you please provide the same level of insightful commentary on any image I put forth from this moment on.  As an extra favour, I'd appreciate it you could step back in time and stop me from taking all the crappy shots I've wasted film stock or electrons capturing.  :P

I really should go back to school and study art or philosophy.



No Jennifer; accept the lessons of life learned so far, go back and study law or accountancy or, better, both. If you wish something more physical, try dentistry. In any of those fields you should make enough to retire early and spend the rest of your happy days cruising the pirate-free seas and snapping away to your heart's content. You could leave those mean streets far behind you and enjoy a life of light.

I can promise you this: were I able to afford a boat - really afford in a 'not having to ask what it costs' sort of way, that's what I'd probably have done when I was young. Something under 25m - something where you don't need crew. At least, that was my take from cruising on that size and larger - the other bodies needed to run the damned thing destroy the privacy, however rich you may be.

Rob C

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 06:56:50 am »

You guys are kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding!

Yep, sorry folks. It was around 3am and after several G&T's when I threw that together, as I couldn't work out if the image was to be critiqued as a genuine artistic statement/experiment into the value or otherwise of the connotative meaning of the meaningless as viewed through the id, or whether the image was indeed meaningless. So I thought I would critique it in such a way as to prove that even nothing can appear to be something, even when it is obviously nothing.

I believe art critics do this kind of thing on a daily basis in an attempt to validate their opinions, which reminds me of a very funny cartoon I once saw, of two art critics looking at and highly praising the innovative work of an artist, as they studied a giant painting that contained nothing but the words "F*CK ART CRITICS" written across the canvas.

Dave
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Rob C

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Re: Some construction.
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2012, 09:01:25 am »

The best writing I've yet found on the subject of photography, art and its critics lies within the pages of the Taschen book: Jean Loup Sieff. (ISBN 3-8228-4647-3).

Apart from being one of my favourite photographers, he proves himself a man of great wit, insight and gentle acceptance of what Life will throw at one.

I have the large hardback version - I think there's another version also available. Printed in China, it is just wonderful in every way that a book can be.

Rob C

 
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