Leica S adapter for Hasselblad H lenses - why not the other way?

[David Watson]

Just read Michaels note about this adapter.  It seems to me that this is the wrong way round.  I would be much more interested in an adapter that enabled me to use Leica S lenses on my Hasselblad H4D-60.  But then one can buy the S body off the shelf but the lenses are notoriously difficult to get.  Perhaps this is an effort by Leica to support the S body and help overcome the lack of supply of their own lenses with integral shutters?

In any case I have zero interest in buying an S body for its own qualities but those beautiful Leica lenses are a different matter entirely.

[yaya]

The S lenses have a shorter flange focal plane distance and a smaller image circle as they were/are designed for a smaller body than the H. So you're not likely to be able to focus at infinity and will probably suffer from Vignetting

But more importantly, they do not have a shutter and your body doesn't have one either....

[David Watson]

Leica are (intending) to offer these lenses  with integral shutters aren't they?   The sensor in the Leica has a width of 45mm and the one in the Hasselblad H4D-40 is 44.2 so I don't see image circle being a problem.  Don't know about the flange but presumably that is just engineering isn't it?

[Quentin]

But it would be a problem for the larger sensors of the H4D-50 and 60, so its a pointless exercise.

[ondebanks]

Don't know about the flange but presumably that is just engineering isn't it?

I thought I already explained the problem with this in the original thread about the Leica H->S adapter...

Ray

[BJL]

Don't know about the flange but presumably that is just engineering isn't it?

No: the greater flange to focal plane distance of the H bodies means that the S lenses would he forced to sit too far from the focal plane, and so only be able to focus at close range. That is why adapting between lenses for one system and bodies for another goes only one way, which generally means onto a body with lens mount designed for the same or smaller format. So there is more hope of an adaptor for using Leica S lenses on cameras with modern CMOS sensors in 36x24mm format.

Another fun option for the future would be a new larger-than-35mm format non-SLR system with a lens mount shallow enough to allow all kinds of lenses from the great medium format legacy to be used via adaptors. That is a long shot, but if it happens, my money is on Pentax-Ricoh.

[gerald.d]

Another fun option for the future would be a new larger-than-35mm format non-SLR system with a lens mount shallow enough to allow all kinds of lenses from the great medium format legacy to be used via adaptors. That is a long shot, but if it happens, my money is on Pentax-Ricoh.

Isn't that basically the Hartblei?

[Doug Peterson]

The sensor in the Leica has a width of 45mm and the one in the Hasselblad H4D-40 is 44.2 so I don't see image circle being a problem.  Don't know about the flange but presumably that is just engineering isn't it?
[/quote]

As explained by others above you can't "engineer" around the flange distance a lens was designed for. It's an underlying assumption of the design. The lens MUST sit that far away from the sensor to get to infinity focus, and on an H body the mirror is where the lens would need to be.

Leica are (intending) to offer these lenses with integral shutters aren't they?   

When the product was announced in 2008 Leica said there would be four lenses available on launch day available with or without leaf shutters. I think it's reasonable to assume that if those were nearly ready to ship that they would have mentioned something during their recent PR bananza (but that's just educated speculation - they could ship them tomorrow). Clearly developing a modern leaf shutter is not arbitrarily easy. Phase/Mamiya announced LS lenses at the same time as Leica ('Kina, 2008) and took until Dec 2009 to ship it's first one, and another few months to release the firmware that allowed 1/1600th flash sync rather than 1/800th, and it didn't work with the Phase One AF body as originally planned but only with the DF body. Here we are in 2012 and Leica has not yet shipped theirs, but has, very impressively, incorporated Hasselblad's into theirs.

[David Watson]

Okay I don't have the technical knowledge to explain why it is not possible to do this as others have done but:

Sitting in Leica's shoes as a business person doesn't it make more sense to up production of S style optics and re-engineer them to fit Hasselblad and Phase bodies?  To be blunt the Leica 35mm offering is superb but the S series camera is only a serious contender in the bling market if, and it is a gigantic if, you ignore the quality of the glass.

Bottom line?  I think Leica make superb lenses - no question - let down by the utility and cost of the S series bodies.  Why don't they just concentrate on making the best lenses in the world for Nikon, Sony, Hasselblad, Canon and Phase?  There's a question.

[BJL]

Isn't that basically the Hartblei?

Indeed, there are digital view camera options like that. I was thinking of something with a somewhat more modern, convenient viewfinder system, with less lag between composing and exposing.

[Doug Peterson]

Bottom line?  I think Leica make superb lenses - no question - let down by the utility and cost of the S series bodies.  Why don't they just concentrate on making the best lenses in the world for Nikon, Sony, Hasselblad, Canon and Phase?  There's a question.

That's a purely business decision, nothing to do with technicals. They could easily produce lenses intended to be used as 3rd party lenses on other companies' bodies. But they don't.

Then again 2011 was a great year for Leica business wise.

[David Watson]

That's a purely business decision, nothing to do with technicals. They could easily produce lenses intended to be used as 3rd party lenses on other companies' bodies. But they don't.

Then again 2011 was a great year for Leica business wise.

But wouldn't it be nice for you and the others?  Just think Leica & Schneider?

[Stefan.Steib]

That is simply not possible technically AND  if you are half way sane and can use a calculator.

1.: Existing Leica S Lenses have a shorter flange focal distance - and - their image circle is too small for any other MF Camera.

2.: To devellop lenses for e.g. H-Hasselblads they would need to do complete new constructions, this according to a speech I heard some years ago by Dr. Scherle/Zeiss
costs around 1 Mil. € /lens. The possible numbers of a third party supplier to make a product that also violates patents of the mounts - as all of these are now electronically driven would never pay back , left alone the costs for the patent infringements, are much too small.

3.: Lets say they go into 35mm 3rd party lens production -Leica would have to ramp up production and as soon as they do it they run into the same problems the japanese big three (Sigma. Tokina, Tamron) run into- a permanent struggle for compatibility, cost control and competition against the original brand who can always have higher prices which is prohibitive for turnaround and totally impossible for producing their Leica standard. On the opposite if they charge what the need to produce a better lens the price will be too high.
hen and egg......

Just forget it.............

regards
Stefan

[BJL]

Stefan,
I agree up until this point:

3.: Lets say they go into 35mm 3rd party lens production -Leica would have to ramp up production and as soon as they do it they run into the same problems the japanese big three (Sigma. Tokina, Tamron) run into- ...

There is a way around that, that Zeiss has shown with its ZF lenses for Nikon F mount: just offer low volume, high quality, high priced, manual focus, non-electronic, mechanically coupled lenses, which is what most Leica lens enthusiasts probably want anyway. Canon's all electronically coupled EOS mount would be harder, but right now Leica lens lovers probably do not care about access to Canon sensors!

[Stefan.Steib]

BJL

Leica already had these lenses and stopped their production for it - think about the Leica R lenses ! There was a reason they cancelled the whole system !
Zeiss ZF/ZE lenses are made by Cosina and yes, maybe this is a way they also could do it.
But there is no way they can produce these today in Germany with german standards like the S lenses at a competitive price.
So again unless there is a complete change in Leica´s Philosophy this will never happen.

regards
Stefan

[BJL]

Zeiss ZF/ZE lenses are made by Cosina and yes, maybe this is a way they also could do it.
But there is no way they can produce these today in Germany with german standards like the S lenses at a competitive price.
So again unless there is a complete change in Leica´s Philosophy this will never happen.

Ah, I see you point about the necessity of outsourced manufacturing: Zeiss has been for more "entrepreneurial" (dare I say, more practical) than Leica in its approach lately.

[BernardLanguillier]

But there is no way they can produce these today in Germany with german standards like the S lenses at a competitive price.

It doesn't cost less to do business in Japan than it does in Germany...

Zeiss produces in Japan because that's where they get the best quality... and this comment is coming from people from Zeiss Japan... no I won't provide any name.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Stefan.Steib]

Bernard

the Master Primes, Cine Primes and Compact primes are made in Germany and they are significantly more expensive.
I would also say that these represent the actual top of the line Quality Zeiss lenses.

So it can be discussed what "best quality" means.

Regards
Stefan

[dfarkas]

Just read Michaels note about this adapter.  It seems to me that this is the wrong way round.  I would be much more interested in an adapter that enabled me to use Leica S lenses on my Hasselblad H4D-60.  But then one can buy the S body off the shelf but the lenses are notoriously difficult to get.  Perhaps this is an effort by Leica to support the S body and help overcome the lack of supply of their own lenses with integral shutters?

In any case I have zero interest in buying an S body for its own qualities but those beautiful Leica lenses are a different matter entirely.

I won't go into the reasons why Leica won't make lenses for other cameras as I think others already covered this point very well. But, I will disagree that S lenses are difficult to find. We have every S lens and S accessory in stock and have for quite a while now. Leica has been excellent about ramping up manufacture to meet demand. M lenses.... well, that's a different story (although it is improving).

As far as the S2 body vs. the H4D, I'd strongly suggest trying them side-by-side (if you haven't already). The S2 body offers many functional and ergonomic advantages. Here's a few big ones:

- dual shutter system (even with H lenses) to shoot at 1/4000 with FPS or up to 1/750 or 1/1000 with CS
- weather sealing (not with H lenses)
- much, much longer battery life (2,000 shots per charge)
- more compact and lighter weight
- can use S lenses 

I used the S2 with a couple different H lenses a couple days ago here in Berlin and I have to hand it to Leica for making it so seamless.

David

[K.C.]

Leica already had these lenses and stopped their production for it - think about the Leica R lenses ! There was a reason they cancelled the whole system !

I owned an extensive R system and the lenses were typical Leica. The re-badged Minolta bodies were outdated in ever way possible. I think they stopped the R system because they didn't have a decent camera to put their lenses on and knew their limited SLR market wasn't worth the resources to pursue.

I moved to SONY with Zeiss and never looked back.

And clearly Cosina is able to build comparable quality to German production and do it consistently. It's my understanding they don't take on more production because they're maxed out already.