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Author Topic: Can LR benefit from SSD?  (Read 4657 times)

dreed

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Can LR benefit from SSD?
« on: April 29, 2012, 08:42:24 pm »

I was just wondering, if I use an SSD for the cache directory for ACR/LR, would there be much in the way of performance benefit?

And what of using it for LR's library, containing both the previews and library metadata itself? (At least you can choose where that goes).
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John Cothron

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 08:53:47 pm »

Everything I've researched leads me to believe you are better off to leave the previews and catalog together.  I have read some test material (somewhere) on different configurations using SSD's in different ways and there does seem to be some benefit, particularly for the cache.  Overall however The amount of benefit in measured time I didn't find to be worth it for my purposes.  Initial boot times will be much faster of course but as far as importing images, etc. there didn't seem to be a HUGE difference.

I opted to put the cache on a drive by itself, which did seem to give me some operational benefit.

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Steve Weldon

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 10:37:49 pm »

I was just wondering, if I use an SSD for the cache directory for ACR/LR, would there be much in the way of performance benefit?

And what of using it for LR's library, containing both the previews and library metadata itself? (At least you can choose where that goes).

Agreed, leave the library/previews together.

Being that the library, previews, and all file operations are disk dependent, of course you'll see a performance increase with a faster storage device.  How much difference you'll see is entirely dependent on how fast the device, and how many write/read operators your workflow entails.   Without question, properly done, the performance gains are potentially huge.  Maybe even life changing depending how excited you get over these things.. :)

The larger your preview/library, the more of a gain you'll see.  The bigger files you read/write, the more of a gain you'll see.  The faster the device, the more the gain..

And while the cheapest SSD is generally faster than the most expensive hard disk.. don't be tempted to go the cheap route if the reason you're doing this is for performance gains.  I see people do this all the time.  "I want increased performance so I'm paying extra for a SSD, but to save money I'm getting a cheap SSD.."   They're just not thinking this through.  SSD's perform very differently from their competition in ways we don't think much about with hard drives.

Right now I'd recommend the Intel 520 Series.  I reviewed one here.  It's very close to being the fastest SATA interface SSD on the market (top 3 maybe), but I'd choose it over the few faster ones because it's been validated to death and it's proving to be a very reliable drive.

If you have a large library/previews.. mine for instance is in excess of 500gb.. then think about a PCIe Revo hybrid 1tb.. about $329 and faster on average than most SATA SSD's even though it's a hybrid. and the hybrid controller is ideally suited to cache/preview/library tasking. 

Good luck with this..
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 01:23:29 am »

How would the Previews and cache get separated?

I guess I've skipped a beat or 2 when coming to understand LR..

When I import images from a CF card, I dump the images on the server and when asked I backup the Lib to the server. When I ADD to the editing station from a tethered shoot I I have the "library, or cache or previews on my C:/User/MyPix, default location.

I am concerned as I too use a SSD for C drive and a RAID-0 SSD for scratch (though only config for Photshop, not sure how for LR if applicable).

Once an SSD fails, it is lights out!  I had it happen to Patriot drive 2x...luckily only OS on it that was imaged to a Raptor drive. Within minutes I was back up. I replaced my SSD with a Crucial SSD with zero failure in about 6 months so far(flashed firmware day I received).

Anyone wanna enLightRoom me with how things get stored with LR?
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John Cothron

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 05:42:27 am »

How would the Previews and cache get separated?

I guess I've skipped a beat or 2 when coming to understand LR..

When I import images from a CF card, I dump the images on the server and when asked I backup the Lib to the server. When I ADD to the editing station from a tethered shoot I I have the "library, or cache or previews on my C:/User/MyPix, default location.

I am concerned as I too use a SSD for C drive and a RAID-0 SSD for scratch (though only config for Photshop, not sure how for LR if applicable).

Once an SSD fails, it is lights out!  I had it happen to Patriot drive 2x...luckily only OS on it that was imaged to a Raptor drive. Within minutes I was back up. I replaced my SSD with a Crucial SSD with zero failure in about 6 months so far(flashed firmware day I received).


Phil,

You can choose where the cache is stored under Edit>Preferences>File Handling  The option is near the bottom of that dialog.
Anyone wanna enLightRoom me with how things get stored with LR?
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JRSmit

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 06:44:48 am »

I was just wondering, if I use an SSD for the cache directory for ACR/LR, would there be much in the way of performance benefit?

And what of using it for LR's library, containing both the previews and library metadata itself? (At least you can choose where that goes).
I just assembled a Intel Core i7/H77 chipset system ruinning Windows 7, with an SSD. The SSD is there because i take this system on location for tethered shooting, thus gets some beating. Mechanical harddisks are more vulnerable, so i opted for a SSD , in this case a Samsung 830 256GB, because of its high write speed (they all read quite fast).
Using this with LR4RC2 is a significant performance improvement, not so much on import from memory card, but going through catalog previews or swap over from library to develop is much faster.
Will do a systemdisk carbon copy to a fast Harddisk in a week or so, but for security reasons i made a systemdisk copy to a WD Cavia 16D 250GB (older drive), the performance diff is shocking.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 07:01:40 am »

I was just wondering, if I use an SSD for the cache directory for ACR/LR, would there be much in the way of performance benefit?
I did exactly what you're proposing earlier in the year. I swapped a 10k Raptor for an SSD (OCZ Agility 3). It was only really used for ACR cache/library/LR previews.  It's only on a SATA II controller, so probably isn't running at it's full potential, but the results weren't as dramatic as I'd hoped.
Certainly a noticeable improvement, particularly when moving around the catalogue in big jumps or when doing searches, but when working on one set of images it's less noticeable.
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francois

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 07:26:24 am »

Here's an interesting read on Ian Lyons' website: Will an SSD Improve Adobe Lightroom Performance?
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Francois

John Cothron

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 07:37:25 am »

Here's an interesting read on Ian Lyons' website: Will an SSD Improve Adobe Lightroom Performance?

that is the article I read, and the reason I opted to stay on a conventional drive.  The times just didn't seem worth it to me.  I don't have a problem with searches or scrolling now so....
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hjulenissen

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 09:29:38 am »

i7 2600
12GB of ram
Intel SSD drive for OS/applications and LR cache
750GB spinning drive for LR library

I never considered that splitting the two up might affect performance negatively.

LR 4.0 was very slow, RC1 somewhat better, RC2 I have not investigated.

If it is not disk, not the amount of ram, and not the GPU, and >4 cores does not usually help performance, what else is left as the bottleneck other than the cpu single(/few)-threaded performance?

Anyone run tests using Intels latest and greates Ivy Bridge/22nm (i7 37xx)?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5771/the-intel-ivy-bridge-core-i7-3770k-review/6
The Photoshop CS-4 test is especially interesting. Am I right that both Photoshop and Lightroom are mainly fixed-point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions_2#Advanced_Vector_Extensions_2
Quote
Advanced Vector Extensions 2 (AVX2), also known as Haswell New Instructions,[1] is an expansion of the AVX instruction set to be first introduced in Intel's Haswell microarchitecture. AVX2 makes the following additions:
Expansion of most integer AVX instructions to 256 bits
...
Not until next generation, though...

-h
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 09:31:19 am »

Here's an interesting read on Ian Lyons' website: Will an SSD Improve Adobe Lightroom Performance?

This article isn't complete.  Some areas which can be misleading:


1.  "In terms of read/write performance the SDD is capable of achieving in excess of 240 MB/sec whereas the disk drive maxes out at around 100 MB/sec."

Raw read and write times are valuable for mechanical hard disks, but are relatively worthless when evaluating the difference an SSD makes.   With an SSD the most important measurements are your 4k and 4k-64 times (1024) small file read/write times directly tied to the size of files dependents on your file system.  It's nice to know currently SSD's can read/write in excess of 500mbps, but it's far more important to know their 4k times are exceeding 20mbps reads and nearly 100mbps writes and their 1024 files are over 200mbps read and write.  Because when you compare these numbers you can see the huge performance differences which really count.

As an example, download AS SSD benchmarking software.  I like this one because I think it more closely emulates a image based work flow.  What this does is it reads and writes a set number of files and records the time.  This number of files remains the same for any device it tests.  The Intel 520 256gb SSD I reviewed here completes this entire test in 10-15 seconds.  Fast enough so you'll sit there waiting for the result.  A 10,000 RPM modern Raptor takes over an hour.  An average laptop drive can take several hours.  Remember, they're all reading and writing the same number of same size files, but an SSD is doing it in 10-15 seconds, and a mechanical hard drive an hour to hours.

But there's more.  You can't assume this huge performance difference will translate directly to ANY application.  These performance numbers relate to specific tasks.. so you need to understand what tasks your application will benefit the most from, and if an SSD will therefore benefit your application.  This takes a lot more knowledge and testing than we're used to with mechanical HDD's.   However, the OP asked about catalog/previews.. if you're going through your archives sorting or looking for specific images.. this type of tasking is ideally suited for the performance benefits of an SSD.. this is why everyone is saying they see a huge difference in performance when going through their libraries.  And why I said above the size and structure of your library/previews will see the more performance benefits the larger their sizes are.

Let's say your library/previews are on a fast SSD.  With CPU/RAM performance constant, you will be able to search for an display those previews significantly faster than if they were on an HDD.  However, once you choose an image to be processed and exported and if that file is on a HDD.. then the performance increases of the SSD will seem much less because the CPU/RAM becomes the bottleneck.

2.  On the tests in this article where he's importing.  I'm not seeing what he's importing from.  Are the images being brought in from a flash card and flash card readers (both serious potential bottlenecks), or are they being imported from an existing location on a hard disk.  I'm not seeing where this is specified.

3.  Only one of this tests has all operations on SSD's.  All the other tests has at least one file component on an HDD.  The first test is "time to import and render 1:1 previews", but it doesn't say where it's importing from and a flash drive/reader are your most significant bottlenecks in this work flow.  The second test "time to render 1:1 previews" always has a HDD in the work flow as do the other tests.. where the tasks do need the SSD.  In other words, if you assume the HDD is the slowest device (which it is) and it's always in the work flow, then it's always a bottleneck which distorts any performance advantages you might get from the SSD.

4.  Bottlenecks are also found in controllers, use of RAM, CPU function, bus speeds, and more.  Which means, using the same computer and setup for this type of testing potentially (and probably) is introducing the same bottlenecks in all work flows.. so more distortion.  

5.  SSD tests by themselves will always state the base computer CPU/RAM and often more.  This is when the benchmark is being ran on just the SSD.  But when you're trying for benchmarks across the entire work flow and system, then you also need to look really hard at the entire system and this wasn't done.  In other words, there could be one or more bottlenecks (and there probably are) throttling the performance advantages of an SSD.

6.  With all that said, even in an ideal system with the bottleneck being the SSD itself.. performance gains for certain areas of a lightroom work flow will be negligable, and for other parts of the work flow huge.  You need to understand your work flow and where you spend the more time to know if an SSD could potentially improve YOUR work flow.  And when I say "potentially" I mean if YOUR system has no other bottlenecks getting in the way of that performance.  This is why the guy who designs and builds your system must understand not only computers and other hardware, but the imaging work flow you're using as well.  He/She must also understand how the setup parameters affect different performance factors and how these affect work flow, and how drivers can do the same.  There really is a lot to an accurate answer to these questions.

7.  As you can see there are many variables unique to each individual system and work flow which affects the answer to "will an SSD improve the speed of my work flow.  Much."   The question simply can't be answered with only an HDD and SSD as the only variables.  

8.  All I can say with certainty is this.  SSD's over dramatic performance increases over HDD's IF the supporting system is void of bottlenecks.  These differences are highly dependent on YOUR work flow.  Some functions in LR will benefit greatly from an SSD, others marginally.


« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 02:26:01 pm by Steve Weldon »
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francois

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 10:03:29 am »

This article isn't complete.  Some areas which can be misleading:


It would also be interesting to see whether the new ACR caching (with smaller sized files) introduced with ACR 6.7 and LR 4 affects the SSD vs HD performance or not.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 10:06:43 am by francois »
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Francois

dreed

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 11:19:49 am »

Here's an interesting read on Ian Lyons' website: Will an SSD Improve Adobe Lightroom Performance?

Which pretty much answers my questions with an empathic "no".

So at this point in time, the bottleneck is the CPU/RAM/motherboard and not the disk.
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Remo Nonaz

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 12:15:31 pm »

I recently installed an SSD, replacing my system 'C' drive. All my images are on a rotational drive. Booting the system and launching applications are dramatically faster - about 20 seconds to cold boot, and maybe 6 or 7 seconds to launch CS4. But the operation of Lr and CS4 does not have seemed to have changed at all.

The main advantage I've seen to the SSD is that using sleep mode now works really well. Hit sleep and the computer shuts down in about 5 seconds. Jiggle the mouse and it wakes up faster than the screen can brighten. A nice feature? Yes. Worth $300? Probably not. But, I didn't have to pay for the SSD.  ;D
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Can LR benefit from SSD?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 02:32:21 pm »

It would also be interesting to see whether the new ACR caching (with smaller sized files) introduced with ACR 6.7 and LR 4 affects the SSD vs HD performance or not.
I didn't know Adobe did this.. but with the popularity of SSD's and their becoming almost standard in any halfway serious system, it would make sense to restructure the cache to take advantage of SSD's. 
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