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Author Topic: Does the D800E reach MF quality ?  (Read 25154 times)

tsjanik

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Re: Does the D800E reach MF quality ?
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2012, 09:43:43 PM »

Nikon is getting a lot of well deserved attention over the D800(E); however, it seems that Sony is really the company responsible for the progress.  Any thoughts on where this sensor and any larger variants may appear?
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ndevlin

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Re: Does the D800E reach MF quality ?
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2012, 07:29:18 AM »


I'm going to stay agnostic on the "look" question, because I used to believe it to be true, but an starting to doubt.

However, I will say this: the Fuji X-Pro1 delivered files - in out-of-camera jpeg, with better skin tones than any other camera I've recently used.  And I am not the only one to have noticed this. 

Now, I didn't buy the camera (yet) for a variety of reasons unrelated to image quality.  However, it has proven to me that technological advances in both sensor design and processing are fundamentally altering the rules of what is visually possible from smaller sensors. 

Scaled-up, the Fuji X-trans would blow anything else away (at the moment).

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        www.nickdevlin.com

BJL

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Where will this sensor tech go next? A Sony SLT in full 35mm format
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2012, 09:41:18 AM »

Any thoughts on where this sensor and any larger variants may appear?
My thoughts are that:

- This sensor (or a close cousin) is likely to appear in a new Sony SLT model later this year, as has been indicated by Sony. If so, that will effectively confirm that Sony is no longer making cameras with optical vewfinders.

- In the longer term, such a sensor might appear in a Leica product, but not in an M body anytime soon, because Leica officials have explicitly said in a recent interview (reported in BJP and elsewhere) that it is staying with Kodak/Truesense CCD sensors for the M bodies.

- There will almost certainly not be any larger variant: Sony, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic and other CMOS sensor designers and makers have shown absolutely no interest in the relatively tiny market for sensors for DMF, and with cameras like the D800(E) eating a bit more into the former market for formats larger than 36x24mm, any such move into those larger formats is even less likely now than before.

Of course, I am not absolutely ruling out a larger CMOS sensor suitable for DMF, but judge it very unlikely. Since it is impossible to prove a negative, we will probably have to wait a few years for confirmation, much as was agreed in another thread. I expect this to evolve as with the formerly frequent speculations about Canon or Nikon launching new systems in a format larger than 35mm: those dreams seem to have been abandoned.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:47:26 AM by BJL »
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tsjanik

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Re: Where will this sensor tech go next? A Sony SLT in full 35mm format
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2012, 01:12:00 PM »

..............Of course, I am not absolutely ruling out a larger CMOS sensor suitable for DMF, but judge it very unlikely. Since it is impossible to prove a negative, we will probably have to wait a few years for confirmation, much as was agreed in another thread. ....................

Yes, I think we still have 4 years and 11 months to wait on that bet. :D

Given the progress in CMOS sensors why would Leica remain with CCDs?
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BJL

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Leica M staying with CCDs, for now: why, and for how long?
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2012, 03:05:06 PM »

Given the progress in CMOS sensors why would Leica remain with CCDs?
That is an interesting question, especially coming in a press conference where Leica people also talked about advantages of CMOS, described them as the way of the future, and the fact that Leica is using Sony CMOS sensors in its smaller format, fixed lens X1 and X2 models.

My first guess is that this is because there is a substantial investment involved in changing all the support electronics and firmware around the sensor, which with the relatively low unit sales of the M series adds significantly to the price, and so Leica is at least moving slowly on any shift to a radically new type of sensor. But there could also be philosophical factors slowing things down. For example, I can imagine that Leica insists on continuing the pure approach of having no OLP filter, and will not accept the strange approach of the D800E, which in turn might be the only option for now because of the way that those sensors are manufactured (needing the second OLPF sheet bonded to the sensor?)

Four years and eleven months should be enough time for them to solve all the engineering challenges though!
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peterv

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Re: Does the D800E reach MF quality ?
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2012, 05:59:18 PM »

Agreed, that timeframe should be more than enough. Perhaps quite soon we'll see a CMOS Leica M:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2174163/leica-hints-video-features-upcoming-m10

In the same article they mention True Sense as their preferred sensor supplier.

The upcoming S3 is also rumored to have CMOS, which would make a lot of sense IMHO.
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ondebanks

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Re: Does the D800E reach MF quality ?
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2012, 08:27:53 PM »

The upcoming S3 is also rumored to have CMOS, which would make a lot of sense IMHO.

If true, that would make it the first MFD unit with CMOS*. Which would be terrific, if it gets the CMOS ball rolling with the other manufacturers.

Ray

*Yair, before you interject - I know about the Leaf C-MOST back....but that sensor wasn't larger than 35mm format. (And it was noisier than the 35mm format CCDs of the day)
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BJL

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Truesense = Kodak = CCD, not CMOS
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2012, 09:11:55 PM »

Perhaps quite soon we'll see a CMOS Leica M:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2174163/leica-hints-video-features-upcoming-m10

In the same article they mention True Sense as their preferred sensor supplier.
Truesense Imaging (the former Kodak sensor division) only makes CCDs, not CMOS sensors: that is why I concluded that there is no CMOS M camera coming in the foreseeable future. I seriously doubt that a custom 30x45mm (or larger) CMOS sensor would be designed and made for the very low volume Leica S series; even less so than for the M, where Leica has for now ruled out a CMOS sensor.
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peterv

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Re: Truesense = Kodak = CCD, not CMOS
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2012, 12:18:06 PM »

Truesense Imaging (the former Kodak sensor division) only makes CCDs ...

Yes, that's why I mentioned them because I can not combine the Leica management statement about Truesense Imaging being the sensor supplier on the one hand and the video rumors on the other. Oh well, we'll see in a couple of months, or not...

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David Schneider

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Re: Does the D800E reach MF quality ?
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2012, 09:32:45 PM »

 

Scaled-up, the Fuji X-trans would blow anything else away (at the moment).



Based on what's been shown with the XPro-1, if Fuji takes it's experience making medium format, their experience making Hasselblad lenses, makes that XPro-1 sensor larger (especially with it's high iso capability) and makes a medium format camera it could change the face of mfd and leave Hassie and Phase One, and maybe even Leica, in the dust.
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