Thoughts on the Leaf Credo

[BJL]

I agree re. the essential similarity of the optical designs. However, the actual glass often accounts for a modest fraction of the overall lens weight. Having a leaf shutter (and in the case of the Rollei lenses, also those two linear motors driving the shutter and aperture) adds considerable weight, as do differences in the barrel and bayonet diameters and materials.

Agreed: differences like having a leaf shutter will have a big effect, but that would be the same whether it is a LS lens for 6x6 or 645. Lens mounts will have a difference, but in fact probably make the 6x6 lenses of the same focal length shorter and lighter, because the lens mount is further from the focal plane. (Not that this helps much, because the 6x6 body is larger and heavier by more than the lenses are smaller and lighter!)

Nope! I'm afraid you've seriously misinterpreted the "Area Covered" specification for all these RZ67 lenses.

Sorry! I grabbed the wrong numbers in my hasty search of the MamiyaLeaf web-site, where these lenses are now deprecated to "Legacy Products" with less information that before ... but I do recall seeing image circle specs that show the same trend, because the basic fact is that lenses from normal to moderate telephoto tend to use roughly the same optical designs, and cover about the same angular FOV before "format cropping" by lens hoods, internal baffles, film gates, and so on. Even a true telephoto lens design consists roughly of a front part that is a lens of a less long focal length with an integrated TC (diverging lens elements) at the back, which magnifies the image circle.

I have specs for the M645 lenses, and they follow the same trends under these headings.

Can you point me to the M645 specs? It would be nice to have some concrete examples of actual products, to go with data from an old textbook on lens design that I consult.

[ondebanks]

Can you point me to the M645 specs? It would be nice to have some concrete examples of actual products, to go with data from an old textbook on lens design that I consult.

No problem. This was a webpage that I saved several years ago from a Mamiya source (Japan perhaps? judging by the occasionally mangled English). I've converted it into a PDF file, which you can download from my Dropbox:

M645 "N" lenses specifications

Anyone who's interested in the M645 lenses might want to check it out.

Ray

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I was just going to ask for where you got those specs, thanks for posting it.

[jduncan]

I don't understand the pricing, it like the Pentax 645 and  the Nikon D800 never happened.
Even worse, what about this :http://www.hasselbladusastore.com/products/H4D%252d40%252d-Stainless-%28w%7B47%7D80mm-HC-lens%29.html

Can't understand.  Why wil a H2 leaf guy update to this Leaf back instead of buying a H4D-40?

I will not be surprised  if the Leaf has a little advantage of image quality, plus USB3 and so on, but for me even if it's true is difficult to justify that investment.

Best regards,

JAmes

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I don't understand the pricing, it like the Pentax 645 and  the Nikon D800 never happened.
Even worse, what about this :http://www.hasselbladusastore.com/products/H4D%252d40%252d-Stainless-%28w%7B47%7D80mm-HC-lens%29.html

Can't understand.  Why wil a H2 leaf guy update to this Leaf back instead of buying a H4D-40?

I will not be surprised  if the Leaf has a little advantage of image quality, plus USB3 and so on, but for me even if it's true is difficult to justify that investment.

Best regards,

JAmes

Pentax is honestly niche for people who had those lenses and are ardent followers of the system or so I have been told. The 645D and D800 also appeal to advanced amateurs in the same way the Hasselblad 31mp and Leaf/Mamiya 22mp do. THe Credo certainly seems better then the aptus backs.

And certainly the obvious advantage of having an open system, especially if you use technical cameras or other things like that is sort of the elephant in the room I believe.

[jduncan]

Pentax is honestly niche for people who had those lenses and are ardent followers of the system or so I have been told. The 645D and D800 also appeal to advanced amateurs in the same way the Hasselblad 31mp and Leaf/Mamiya 22mp do. THe Credo certainly seems better then the aptus backs.

And certainly the obvious advantage of having an open system, especially if you use technical cameras or other things like that is sort of the elephant in the room I believe.

Thanks for the quick response.
 
The hasselblad listed with a lens is the H4D-40, Stainless Steel version, with a 80mm f2.8 lens. It's listed at $20,995.00 vs 19995 US$ for the leaf back only (according to the price listed on this forum).
 
The advanced amateur part cloud be true, but I am sure that lot's of high flying professionals will be using the D800. The idea that true professionals only use  medium format is not only outdated, but harmful: It could block MF companies from getting a good handle of the market forces.  In any case we are talking about the H4D-40.

Best regards,

James

[BJL]

Ray,
Thanks for the link on 645 lenses. It is a pity that it still does not have the image circle diameter measurements that I recall seeing for Mamiya's 6x7 lenses (is my memory playing tricks on me about those?), but that PDF will go into my DropBox collection too.

P. S. the best defence I have heard of for the ability of photographers to sustain the high prices, particularly of the larger 52x40 sensor options, is "share the costs with a number of your colleagues". In other words, "rent". I wonder how many professional photographers are now in a middle ground of owning Nikon or Canon gear and then renting MF for the jobs that need it, or where at least the customer demands MF, and will pay extra to cover the rental fees.

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I believe the stainless steel version is a limited edition?

Certainly there is a certain stigma related to medium format. I definitely agree that a lot of "high-flying pro's" as you put it would not use a D800. A large part of being professional on one level is looking the part. And some may disagree but I know many working professionals who tell me that they sometimes even set up more lights and equipment then they actually use for a shoot because its impressive and what the clients want to see. So I certainly agree with you on this point.

H4D-40 / Leica S2 / Pentax 645D / PhaseOne and Leaf 40mp options (I think leaf goes 33mp and 56mp I don't exactly know) these cameras have different designs concepts and ideologies but they certainly have the technical image quality down and are inviting to a large amount of people. Certainly the large 60-80mp sensors which are more costly are a different market but these cameras I listed above are largely competing for the same market and all claim and in some cases truly do have certain advantages over each other depending on your applications.

[jduncan]

I believe the stainless steel version is a limited edition?

Certainly there is a certain stigma related to medium format. I definitely agree that a lot of "high-flying pro's" as you put it would not use a D800. A large part of being professional on one level is looking the part. And some may disagree but I know many working professionals who tell me that they sometimes even set up more lights and equipment then they actually use for a shoot because its impressive and what the clients want to see. So I certainly agree with you on this point.

H4D-40 / Leica S2 / Pentax 645D / PhaseOne and Leaf 40mp options (I think leaf goes 33mp and 56mp I don't exactly know) these cameras have different designs concepts and ideologies but they certainly have the technical image quality down and are inviting to a large amount of people. Certainly the large 60-80mp sensors which are more costly are a different market but these cameras I listed above are largely competing for the same market and all claim and in some cases truly do have certain advantages over each other depending on your applications.

Hi, yes the H4D-40 SS is a limited edition, but is not less expensive. I believe you miss understood me: I wanted to say is that  a lot "high-flying pro's" WILL use the D800.
My point is that the leaf back is priced at almost the same price that a Hassy with the same resolution, and a lens.

I don't understand why.

Best regards,

James

[Brian Hirschfeld]

You don't understand why? I think it is simply marketing and trying to appeal to people by offering different things. It would certainly seem that Hasselblad would appeal to you more because you see it as getting "more" I suppose which is exactly what they are shooting for. Hasselblad is trying to get you into a system anyway so they can take a "loss" (although I honestly don't think they are) when selling you the razor and then they will get you on the blades (lenses, accessories, future upgrades). I think the razor and blade analogy is duly applicable here. Since Leaf doesn't actually make any cameras, they have less of an incentive to bundle with products from another devision of the same company, at least when Mamiya / Leaf / PhaseOne were not consolidated. Now I suspect you will start to see those types of packages coming together on sites like B&H where they sell Leaf backs with Mamiya bodies at the moment (I don't believe they include a lens).

[BJL]

To keep the comparison simpler, a Leaf Aptus-II 40MP back (same sensor as Credo?), plus Mamiya 645DF body, plus 80mm lens for $17,995:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/823186-REG/Mamiya_020_00940B_DM_Series_40Mp_DSLR_Camera.html

Or if that is considered a discount on a soon to be superceded back, the current Hasselblad back with the same 40MP sensor, standard (non stainless steel) body but no lens, is the same $17,995:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/674543-REG/Hasselblad_70380554_H4D_40_Medium_Format_DSLR.html

Each $1500 less than the new Leaf Credo 40MP back.


No comment for me; I just throw up the numbers for discussion.

[yaya]

The hasselblad listed with a lens is the H4D-40, Stainless Steel version, with a 80mm f2.8 lens. It's listed at $20,995.00 vs 19995 US$ for the leaf back only (according to the price listed on this forum).

The roughly equivalent-spec Aptus-II 8 with a 645DF and a 80mm/2.8 Schneider is 17,995 USD (OK it's not stainless steel...)

[design_freak]

I wonder how much money would pay for the Royal edition;-) LOL

Painting does not affect the running of your car, just does not affect the operation of your camera...
Color of the car has a meaning, but what color is the hammer

[ondebanks]

Ray,
Thanks for the link on 645 lenses. It is a pity that it still does not have the image circle diameter measurements that I recall seeing for Mamiya's 6x7 lenses (is my memory playing tricks on me about those?), but that PDF will go into my DropBox collection too.

You're very welcome, BJL.

I have a lot of M645 literature, but I've never seen image circle measurements/specs for the M645 lenses.

Mamiya might well have given image circles for the RB67 lenses, when the ProSD came out with the option of a 6x8 back. Perhaps some lenses could only cover 6x7 and they had to document which ones covered 6x8 well.

P. S. the best defence I have heard of for the ability of photographers to sustain the high prices, particularly of the larger 52x40 sensor options, is "share the costs with a number of your colleagues". In other words, "rent". I wonder how many professional photographers are now in a middle ground of owning Nikon or Canon gear and then renting MF for the jobs that need it, or where at least the customer demands MF, and will pay extra to cover the rental fees.

I'm no pro, but to me that would be a sensible approach. Alternatively, buying an older-tech, used MFD system would not cost a lot - or maybe it's just amateurs like me who do that.

Ray

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I would personally think and rather, buying and older back like a Mamiya ZD or the lower numbered PhaseOne P's or Leaf whatevers would be better because then your into a system + you don't have to work around others schedules and share something. I like having my own things, which is why I hardly ever rent gear as well. Theres something different about it to me when I'm shooting with my gear as to when I'm shooting with something which is only mine for a little while.

[Nick-T]

You know, I love these backs but they're just so damn expensive, honestly it's just too much. I can't see how you'd get a return on investment.

It comes down to the business model. I'm on my 4th back and they have all paid for themselves in about a year, after that first year they become profit centres. IMO it really doesn't matter what the equipment costs as long as you can apply a business model to it, how do you think a construction company justifies the purchase of a half million dollar machine?

Nick-T

[carloalberto]

You know, I love these backs but they're just so damn expensive, honestly it's just too much. I can't see how you'd get a return on investment.

$20000 for a 40mp back? What's new to justify the money?

$10k-$12k, sure sign me up. 20k no. Just no. Stop the madness.

I couldn't agree more. Especially for the overwhelming majority of photographers who are unable to apply a working business model to such an outlay. Sure, there are those that can, but not a lot. At least here in Holland.

[DeckardTrinity]

Part of the increased cost (maybe the majority?) of these backs is in the sensor. Die yields are much, much lower the larger a sensor you try to cut from it. I believe I've read that these larger sensors are actually smaller sensors bound together to form a larger array, which would make the electronics to read data off of them more complex too. All those costs push the ultimate retail price higher and higher.

Clearly there is a market out there for these backs, but it would be interesting to see a breakdown of how many folks are actually turning around and making increased profits after the investment, vs the serious hobbyists out there (such as myself).

[yaya]

BTW we've just created a Credo section on our User Forum. More people will be testing/ demo'ing the backs over the next weeks so expect some new discussions over there.

Just finished a classic car studio shoot in London with the Credo 80. We did have a laptop but the photographer's commented that with the new screen and Live View the laptop can stay in the bag. (he shoots on a Nikon D4 and an Aptus-II)

[BJL]

I believe I've read that these larger sensors are actually smaller sensors bound together to form a larger array, which would make the electronics to read data off of them more complex too. All those costs push the ultimate retail price higher and higher.

A correction, which does not effect your cost argument: the "stitching together" to make large sensors is not putting together completed, separate sensors; it is the way that large sensors are fabricated as a single piece on a single silicon wafer, but "etching" only part of the sensor at a time and then moving the wafer sideways before etching another part, and so on: about six pieces for a Dalsa 48x36mm sensor. This has to be done because the fabrication devices can only project an integrated circuit up to at most 33x26mm at once. And the precise alignment needed after moving the wafer increases failure rates substantially, and so does cause sensor prices to go up rapidly as the size goes beyond about 33x26mm. This price jump kicks in between the mainstream "APS-C" sensor cameras (cameras starting at about $500) and the full 35mm format ones (cameras starting at about $2,700, or more recently $3,000), and accelerates more at the next size up (44x33mm, cameras starting at about $10,000).

P. S. for X-rays, there are big sensor made by physically "butting" together smaller sensors, but that produces join lines than would be unacceptable in a medium format back.