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Author Topic: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?  (Read 15040 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2012, 10:52:30 am »

so do you have proper skin tones w/ negative a or b in lab in your examples ?


You can keep the data in RGB and just set the info for Lab. Looking over most of the good skin tone reference files I have, including the Roman 16*, aStar and bStar are often numerically very close and never more than 15 values difference. In Photoshop, this is a good bet. In Lightroom and ACR, you’ll have to use RGB ratio’s (no Lab readouts). Normal skin has values for A and B which are both positive (greater than 0).

The trick using any scale is to gather skin tone’s of images you know are good to begin with and just keep an eye on any output scale. The Roman’s are good but there are all kinds of excellent reference images for download you can find. As you output your own and see they produce good results, just keep a collection on hand. At some point, you can just view them next to the image you want to work on an steer the corrections visually without even dealing with numbers of you want.

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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 12:04:23 pm »


You can keep the data in RGB and just set the info for Lab. Looking over most of the good skin tone reference files I have, including the Roman 16*, aStar and bStar are often numerically very close and never more than 15 values difference. In Photoshop, this is a good bet. In Lightroom and ACR, you’ll have to use RGB ratio’s (no Lab readouts). Normal skin has values for A and B which are both positive (greater than 0).

The trick using any scale is to gather skin tone’s of images you know are good to begin with and just keep an eye on any output scale. The Roman’s are good but there are all kinds of excellent reference images for download you can find. As you output your own and see they produce good results, just keep a collection on hand. At some point, you can just view them next to the image you want to work on an steer the corrections visually without even dealing with numbers of you want.



but we are going back to the point that a, b separated from L still better (or similar HS (L, V, B) ) and more logical (even w/ negative values which are very logical as diagram shows) than r, g, b  :) , more so for skin tones...  http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/~elgammal/pub/skin.pdf  - look how neat things are in Lab and how ugly they are in RGB  ::)
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Redcrown

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 01:10:52 pm »

Thanks to all for some great responses to my original question. Thanks in particular to Messrs. McCormick-Goodhart and Segal. Your comments have both enlightened and confused me, and I appreciate both states. Makes me think.

Watching LAB values while working on skin tones in RGB mode is a new idea for me, and after a little practice I find it very intuitive. I've seen Mr. Rodney's argument against using CMYK and in favor of using RGB percentages in other forum threads, but I must admit I've never been able to adopt that mentality. The fact that LAB values stay consistent regardless of the RGB and CMYK working space seems a big advantage.

In hopes of "cutting to the chase", I'd like to ask what methods you actually use to increase saturation. As I mentioned before, I've learned several different methods, and continue to play with them. My experience has been that my preference is often image dependent. I'll prefer one method on a particular image, but then a different method on the next image. That's why I've been revisiting the saturation issue, trying to understand why that is. Trying to underestand how and why the methods vary depending on the hue, saturation, and brightness of the starting values.

Here are my methods, all in Photoshop. Would appreciate comments, critiques, alternatives.

METHOD 0: I use a saturation mask on all the methods below. I've learned several ways to generate saturation masks, and they vary widely. I use the old HBS/HSL filter to make my masks. Also, with each method I turn on soft proofing and gamut warning. Then I increase the saturation until the first gamut warning appears. Then I decrease from there to my personal taste. For my soft proof, I set the printer/paper combination I am most likely to use. Saturation adjustments are always the last step in my workflow. I don't do saturation (or vibrance) adjustments in the raw converter, because I can't use sat masks there, and until CS6 I could not soft proof there.

METHOD 1: The plain old Hue/Sat adjustment layer. Mostly discounted by "experts", but I still use it as a reference check.

METHOD 2: A Channel Mixer adjustment layer, with fairly strong boosts in each channel, then reduced with opacity. Example, I set the red channel to 190, green and blue to -45, and so on.

METHOD 3: The basic Margulis LAB method. I make a dupe of the document, flatten, convert to LAB, apply the "flat" or "linear inward shift" Curves adjustment (with sat mask and soft proof in place). Then flatten that and copy it back to the original as a new layer. I understand that when the LAB image is copied back to the original RGB image it goes through a profile conversion which further modifies color values. Usually, I will put a copy of the original RGB image in Hue blending mode on top of the LAB layer to counteract the Hue shift that occurs in LAB.

METHOD 4: Perform a separation of Luminosity from Color, creating two layers, one in Luminosity mode, one in Color Mode. Then apply (clip) an S-Curve adjustment to the color layer. This is a unique method I learned from a German that goes by the name of "JoansW" and "DerW" in the ModelMahem and RetouchPro forums. I have not seen it discussed much by others.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2012, 01:21:33 pm »

Hi "Redcrown" - glad to have been a source of both help and confusion - not surprisingly they can co-exist.

So much depends on the needs of the image. Most of the images I process don't need much tinkering with saturation, so because my needs are limited and pretty simple, so are the techniques I use. Most of my work starts life in Lightroom, and I find most often that a modest boost of the Vibrance slider does what I need. It's "smart saturation", because it's programmed to be mindful of skin tones and already saturated colours. If I need more than that in specific colour groups, I'll scroll down the panels and do some additional tweaking to selected colour groups in the "S" section of the HSL panel. Now with LR4 that we have softproofing (hurrah), we can predict the impact of these adjustments on the eventual print. This is pretty cool, to say the least. I can readily see when I may be taking saturation of any colour too far - it's either when it looks artificial or when image detail within that colour group starts to get smothered - then you know it's overdone. I'm sure all this sounds very boring, but why make one's image editing life more challenging than it needs to be? Such straightforward, effective time-saving tools have been put at our disposition - we should take full advantage of them first, before getting into the sexier stuff. My 2 cents.
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shotworldwide

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2012, 01:48:54 pm »

I like to use Tony Kuyper's saturation masking technique:

http://goodlight.us/writing/saturationmasks/satmask-1.html

Regards, Filip

BTW - on my index page you can find nine photographs created in combination of working in ProPhotoRGB/LAB colour spaces & Tony's technique:

http://shotworldwide.com
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 01:59:44 pm by shotworldwide »
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digitaldog

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2012, 03:59:03 pm »

I’ve used a similar saturation mask in Photoshop (one place where duplicating the image in CMYK and using the K channel simply to use as a mask in the RGB image) such that you can add saturation outside of darker shadow areas. I’d love to see Vibrance take a similar but optional approach. You’d tell it, to ‘protect’ the shadows or darker regions in upping saturation like it does now with skin. But far better, and a request I’ve made to Adobe for about 15 years or more is a Saturation Curve! I had one in LinoColor and loved it. You could adjust saturation over the tone range using curves. The idea has been around for a very long time but the only application I ever saw it was LinoColor which is long gone.
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shotworldwide

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2012, 04:57:38 pm »

Saturation curve? It sounds interesting and it would be nice to have an opportunity to try it out …

With Tony's technique you are able to desaturate same tones and then reach and saturate tones you would't be able to even touch with usual approach.

Regards, Filip

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Regards, Filip

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new_haven

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 07:56:17 pm »

Margulis rarely if ever uses the LAB curve method discussed above without controlling the effect in some way. Masking, whether through channel blending, luminosity maps, or the blend if sliders, is an important part of the techniques presented in Dan's books.
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Redcrown

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Re: Question on using LAB for saturation increase?
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2012, 02:30:42 am »

I've created a video demo of the techniques I've discussed here. It's available on YouTube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh7Ta-Dz6_c

It's in HD, so go to 1080p and full screen if you can.


I also uploaded the original raw file used in the demo at:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/62166185/sattest.dng

Hoping to generate more discussion, critique of the methods I'm using, and ideas on how to better analyze the results and compare the methods.
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