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Author Topic: Moving from V to H  (Read 6642 times)

Chris Livsey

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Moving from V to H
« on: April 11, 2012, 01:58:06 pm »

I have been using a P20 on a V 'blad with pleasing results on a Gitzo 3540LS and Manfrotto 410 head and with frustration/disappointment when handheld.
In the UK the S/H market has several H3DII cameras with 39 and 50 backs for what no longer looks, to an amateur who can't reclaim taxes on purchases or write-down gear on a tax return, no longer "silly" money (£6500 for a 50 back no lens or a 39 with 80mm lens).
With the sale of the P20 to offset and a bag of lenses to use with the adapter I am tempted (very) but will I, especially with the demanding resolution of the 50, be doomed to handheld sorrow again?
Bottom line:- how usable, in daylight no flash, are these cameras ?
I am not foolish enough to think I can obtain the same quality as the "lock down" option but I would like to see an image that doesn't have me hitting "delete" 9 out of 10  ;D
Avoiding the "just hire one and see" argument, which I will do but I can't shoot multiple scenarios or accumulate years of hands on experience others have had in a week say ( and with no refund on a S/H sale) just tell me like it is.
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jonathan.lipkin

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 02:06:50 pm »

Entirely usable handheld. But, don't expect to use shutter speeds below 1/125 or 1/180 - i can get decent results at 125 or above using an 80mm lens.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:15:26 pm by jonathan.lipkin »
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John R Smith

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 02:10:30 pm »

Chris

I am really not sure just why almost everyone comes up with the complaint that shooting handheld with a V-System 500 or 200 is impossible using a digital back. I use a tripod a lot (for my still-life and architectural stuff) and I shoot handheld a lot, too. Just now and then I do blow it and lose a shot to sloppiness and camera-shake, but then I did with film too. A little while back I spent an afternoon down at a local creek with the 100mm Planar, which as you know is a very demanding lens. I did not lose one shot to camera-shake, and they were all hand-held shots, on the 39MP back.

So why the H-System should make such a huge difference, I really don't know.

John
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 03:03:00 pm »

Chris
A little while back I spent an afternoon down at a local creek with the 100mm Planar, which as you know is a very demanding lens. I did not lose one shot to camera-shake, and they were all hand-held shots, on the 39MP back.
John

I probably don't shoot enough handheld if truth be told after some failures, no doubt down to technique. So the "practise and improve" may not have kicked in. Agree on the 100mm that and the makro planar. Interesting the current line up has dropped the 80mm  ;)
http://www.hasselblad.co.uk/products/lenses-and-accessories/v-system-lenses.aspx

I wonder if the "position" makes a difference handheld? I have tended to a PME90 handheld and WLF on tripod perhaps the 45 finder or WLF handheld is better? Thanks for your points, field (literally) experience. Are you shooting WLF handheld?
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John R Smith

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 03:17:10 pm »

I wonder if the "position" makes a difference handheld? I have tended to a PME90 handheld and WLF on tripod perhaps the 45 finder or WLF handheld is better? Thanks for your points, field (literally) experience. Are you shooting WLF handheld?

Chris

For shooting handheld on the 500s I almost always use the WLF. Brace down on the strap, in against the stomach. Breath out halfway, pause breathing and fire. Just like rifle target shooting. The 45 degree prism works pretty well handheld too - just about the worst to use handheld is the 90 degree prism. I don't know why, really. Both prisms are fine on a tripod, of course. And for my still-life work I use the magnifying hood a lot (tripod, of course).

I've been out this evening with my SWC, just shots of the local farm buildings, horses and stuff. All handheld - in fact, I don't think I have ever used my SWC on a tripod, so far. No reason not to, of course.

John
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 03:23:15 pm »

John
Much appreciated. Don't know why I've not experimented more. I probably use the pme90 for the wrong reason, what it cost  ;D

Silly thing is a S\H CFV 39 is more than a H3DII kit and don't look at the CFV 50, two kits for that.

Best
Chris
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John R Smith

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 04:05:36 pm »

That Hasselblad UK page is very strange. It calls all four lenses "Distagons", when the 100mm is a Planar and the 150mm is a Sonnar. I would guess that the four listed are simply old stock, which are gradually being sold out of inventory. No retailer in the UK is listing the 100mm, as far as I can see. I should imagine that Zeiss made the last of the V-Series lenses some years ago, and that we will see them no more once the few that are left have been sold.

Last year I purchased from the USA a 150mm Zeiss Sonnar made in 1972 which had never been sold and came brand new in its plastic bubble and box, complete with warranty card. It had been sitting on a retailer's shelf for forty years . . . I'm almost scared to use it in case I put a scratch on it  ;)

John
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amsp

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 04:38:40 pm »

I'm only using my 501cm with film, but I find it exceptionally easy to shoot handheld. I can go all the way down to 1/30 with the 80mm and get great results. Like John says, it's all about technique. I love using my Hassy for street and documentary work.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 04:56:42 pm »

I agree with John in that there shouldn't be any difference. Personally I have not used a V with a digital back, but I own a V and shoot 120 film with it and see no reason why you can't just use the same rules you'd use for a H system, in that you don't drop bellow 1/125th of a second and you should be fine. Especially with higher resolution DB's like a 40 or 50 1/125 will have some camera shake but it'll only be apparent when zoomed in in Photoshop, when printed at reasonable sizes, you won't noticed a thing
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epines

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 01:38:39 pm »

I've used a V and my current H with digital backs, and I definitely think the H will give you sharper results handheld, whatever the reason may be. I love the V system and still use my 203FE with film, but the H is just a smoother execution when it comes to firing -- smoother shutter button, smoother mirror movement. I've gotten good results with either system down to 1/30 (even on the 80mm), but the results with the H are better. If you're bracing yourself solidly while handholding, the results with the 80mm at 1/30 are good.

Richard Naismith

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 02:19:44 pm »

I know you want to shoot handheld, and as far as I'm concerned that's ok when you're at close quarters, but in my experience using a tripod and setting the Hasselblad so the mirror goes up and then there's a 2 to 3 second delay before exposure means you'll get perfect shots practically 100% of the time.

All the best.

Richard Naismith
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sailronin

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 03:34:16 pm »

When I shoot film in the 501cm I get good (useable) results down to about 1/30 of a second, however with the digital back and the ability to look at each image at 100% crop, it's difficult for me to handhold below 1/250 and have a sharp image (one that Capture One shows as sharp).
May be flaws in my technique, probably just the ability to inspect at high magnification but I've started using the tripod and mirror lock up most of the time and shots are razor sharp.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 04:26:47 pm »

When I shoot film in the 501cm I get good (useable) results down to about 1/30 of a second, however with the digital back and the ability to look at each image at 100% crop, it's difficult for me to handhold below 1/250 and have a sharp image (one that Capture One shows as sharp).
May be flaws in my technique, probably just the ability to inspect at high magnification but I've started using the tripod and mirror lock up most of the time and shots are razor sharp.

The ability to examine a 100% crop of a 40 megapixel image is roughly equivalent to being able to inspect a 30 inch dark room print the moment you clicked the shutter on film. Even with a good loupe, a good eye, and good experience (and few people had all three) it was no where near as easy with film as it is today to see if you're a bit soft.

Sometimes it's important to remember an image need not be tact sharp at 100% for it to make a great print (or web image), especially when the 100% view is from a 40, 60, or 80mp digital back. With the ability to capture massive detail in an image it is also easy to over-obsess about capturing that detail in every shot. Some subject matter benefits from sharp detail throughout the frame, and some does not.

Chris Livsey

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2012, 04:39:07 pm »

Very generous of all to share experiences.
As I said, no issues with tripods and mirror up etc and I would expect the same with a higher resolution back. I was concerned that the gain I expected from the H series, better dampening, programmed shutter delay, maybe ergonomics which in theory, and it appears some see in practice which is reassuring, would help in getting sharp(ish) handheld work may be negated by going up in sensor resolution.
Richard, you are correct, and no arguments, tripod is the way to go, always has been, even to get the best out of 35mm. But sometimes it just isn't possible or desirable. Again I know no one camera is best at everything but it is nice if they can be pushed out of envelope and still give acceptable results.
I think we have established that technique is critical ( but  think we knew that and just needed reminding) and technology, which viewing system, prism 90 finder etc. plays a part for the V.
I must gently disagree with John and Brian who support the "no difference" camp I think the H advances in technology should make a difference but am willing to be told they don't and that they are correct there is no difference. But neither can quote H experience. Brian, I have files full of sharp negs from the V and really can't tell which are tripod or not, perhaps I should go back to film, and that is serious I shoot an M2 with great pleasure.
 
Again that is the essence of the enquiry. Is the H "better" than the V handheld and supplementary if it is, is that negated by using a more "sensitive to poor technique" higher res back?

Doug, it is easy, as you say, too easy to slip into obsessing over sharpness and technique, especially to the detriment of content. Much of HCB's work is soft, as you would expect from his early work given the film stock available but he didn't suffer. It is probably true that the £6500 could be spent on attending workshops, location shoots etc to more benefit but the itch is there and needs treatment.


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John R Smith

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 03:51:54 am »

Chris

If we are discussing handheld shooting, then no MF camera is going to be ideal. And the difference between the V and the H cameras will as likely come down to ergonomics as anything else. Given your chosen viewfinder, how easy is the camera to to hold? Can you brace it properly against your face or body while using the shutter release? The best camera for handheld shooting is the one that fits your hands. In that respect, you would be far better off going for a Pentax 645D or a Leica S2 which are designed to be used this way, at eye-level.

It sounds to me more like you want to spend some money on an H-System, and are looking for a justification for doing it  ;) I would think there are many good reasons for buying an H-System, but handholding probably wouldn't be at the top of my list.

John
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2012, 05:11:56 am »

It sounds to me more like you want to spend some money on an H-System, and are looking for a justification for doing it  ;) I would think there are many good reasons for buying an H-System, but handholding probably wouldn't be at the top of my list.
John

Partially true  ;) Really my P20 is due an upgrade. The CFV39, which you shoot, would be nice, very, but as I pointed out earlier would cost me more than a H system complete with lens. ( by £2500 even used).
I am happy I would see a gain on the tripod but yet again I re-iterate my question would I see "better" results handheld. That is not top of the list but the other qualities, for and against, are easier to quantify

Whilst I appreciate the civilised nature of discussions here it is sometimes really difficult to extract a simple answer without surrounding the question with clauses to exclude answers which miss the point. I thought my comments in the question had done that but let me be clear  :)
Thus:
gear lust- exclude ( I would take a CFV39 but cost is an issue and P20 is great but ...)
Rental-  exclude (£1,000 for a week to find out myself when asking is free)
Just don't look how sharp it is - exclude (True but a base line technical quality is surely nice)
don't use either hand-held - exclude (Tripod rules OK but now and then it must come off)
technique matters- it does, but the same operator using both systems gets what results ? ( Ethan says H is better from experience- thanks for that)
They are the same- acceptable answer IF you have used both.

Is a H "better" than a V handheld with a large sensor?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 05:19:22 am by Chris Livsey »
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John R Smith

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2012, 11:17:15 am »

Chris

We loves you madly, and all that, but in some ways you are asking an impossible question, which is why you are not getting a straight answer. To test out whether the V or H is better handheld we would need to have -

A Hass 500 body, 80mm lens and digital back of 'x' MP. A Hass H1 or H2 body, 80mm lens and digital back of exactly the same sensor type, area and 'x' MP. Same day, same time, same place, same photographer (same body mass, state of health, heart rate etc for all shots). Then shoot the same subject at the same distance and shutter speed and aperture on both cameras., within say 30 mins to eliminate other variables - using (this is important) the same viewfinder type on both cameras eg WLF, 45 deg prism or whatever. The biggest variable will be you, the photographer - some people have really steady hands, others just don't.

I've never done this. I'd be quite surprised if anyone else here has either (why would they want to?). If you want a definitive answer you are going to have to do it for yourself . . .

John
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 11:19:43 am by John R Smith »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2012, 02:04:14 pm »

Chris
We loves you madly,

Too kind, you took it well  ;D

You propose doing a test which never works, not only here, someone can always find a variable not allowed for- an objective test. Subjective is fine for me.
Rather than your ideal test someone who has moved from shooting a V with digital back to H digital and has shot both handheld will have a subjective opinion, now surely there's some of them about ?
One happy outcome is that we V digital back users are out there  ;D

BTW I am more tempted than ever to rent maybe a day will do  ;) But it will be subjective  ;D
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pflower

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2012, 02:43:27 pm »

Chris

We loves you madly, and all that, but in some ways you are asking an impossible question, which is why you are not getting a straight answer. To test out whether the V or H is better handheld we would need to have -

A Hass 500 body, 80mm lens and digital back of 'x' MP. A Hass H1 or H2 body, 80mm lens and digital back of exactly the same sensor type, area and 'x' MP. Same day, same time, same place, same photographer (same body mass, state of health, heart rate etc for all shots). Then shoot the same subject at the same distance and shutter speed and aperture on both cameras., within say 30 mins to eliminate other variables - using (this is important) the same viewfinder type on both cameras eg WLF, 45 deg prism or whatever. The biggest variable will be you, the photographer - some people have really steady hands, others just don't.

I've never done this. I'd be quite surprised if anyone else here has either (why would they want to?). If you want a definitive answer you are going to have to do it for yourself . . .

John

Well no I haven't done the precise test you suggest, but I have looked at both V and H systems.  I love my V system with the WLF.  Braced against the body with the strap I find that I can get sharp pictures on film at 1/30th even 1/15th - but I normally flip the mirror up before triggering the shutter.  Now the definition of sharp in this context perhaps needs clarification.  Printed in the darkroom my prints look more than acceptable.  Scanned on a Polaroid Sprintscan 120 they look good in photoshop at 100% but then of course grain enters the equation.

Digital files look different.  At 100% they don't look like scanned film files.  I found with a P20 on a V system that 1/30th handheld did not produce files that looked sharp at 100% more than about 1/2 the time.  However after week's practice I found that things improved and in any event the prints looked fine even if the pixel peeking showed less than optimal sharpness.  This was a borrowed back that I very seriously considered buying but in the end didn't.

Had the price of CFV backs been in line with the H range I would have bought one, but like Chris the differential between them and 2nd hand H systems was a factor to take into account.  So I bought an H3D-39.  It is perfectly useable as a big DSLR at eye level.  But shooting at eye level is different from shooting with a WLF.  At eye level you are less stable and shutter speeds below 1/125th are a lottery depending upon the stability of your hands.  I bought a WLF for the H system (absurdly overpriced for what it is) and can say that using an H system in the same way as a V system with one is pretty much on a par.  A very nice feature of the H system is that you can press the mirror up button as easily as on the V system and reduce mirror slap accordingly - as long as you are not depending upon precise framing.

I still use the V system with film regularly.   I would buy a CFV back for my V system tomorrow  if I won the lottery, but don't regret buying the H system and certainly wouldn't stop using it if I had a CFV back.  As long as you don't expect to use it in the same way as a Canon or Nikon DSLR - then I would recommend the H system.  Actually with the HVX finder it has quite a lot to recommend itself over the V system.  At present the deals are pretty convincing.

My 2 pennies' worth.

 
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DavidP

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Re: Moving from V to H
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2012, 06:23:10 pm »

I switched from the V to H after many years. I think the Mirror vibration is worse in the H then the V. There is a delay setting in the firmware that really helps with this.
I really did it because of the auto focus and my difficulty in focusing the old ones as I got older. I am using a 39 megapixel back and you do need faster shutter speeds.
Not always ideal but with enough light, or faster or wider lenses you can do it.
You really need to set the shutter delay though.
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