Luminance matching: Soft Proof vs. Print Adjustment sliders

[SkipA]

New to the forum, so I apologize if this question has already been covered (tried to search for a specific thread but couldn't find one).

In LR3, to compensate for a "too-dull" print (typically using Epson Ultra Premium Photo Luster paper in Stylus Pro 3880) I had been using a Develop module preset to add a certain amount of brightness to an image before going to the Print module. This enabled me to get a reasonably close match in apparent luminance between my print and the image on my screen. (BTW -- this also meant that I rarely touched the Brightness slider for any other purpose during processing, so as to ensure that the "Pre-print" preset worked properly.)

Now in LR 4.1 RC, since the Brightness slider has gone away in PV 2012, I've been printing a number of test prints to see how to perform a similar pre-print compensation. It seems that there are 2 possible approaches: the first would be to create a Proof copy and try to tweak it to match the "un-softproofed" original image prior to printing. The second would be to experiment with the Print Adjustment brightness and contrast sliders prior to printing.

Having done some experimentation with the second approach, I found that I've gone through a lot of paper and ink, before finally concluding that these Print Adjustment sliders don't do anything! I understand that their effect won't be visible on-screen (thus the need for test prints), but various adjustments of these sliders don't appear to affect the prints that I create in the least; the test prints all appear the same regardless of the Print Adjustment slider positions.

Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone else noticed this? Should I abandon this approach and try using soft-proofing instead? (BTW, my monitor is calibrated and I'm printing using the proper paper profile as well as ensuring that LR, rather than the printer, is managing color.)

Thanks.
Skip

[RFPhotography]

You want to use the new soft proofing capability in LR4.  This is something that users have been asking about since LR1. 

[Tony Jay]

+1

Get the Lr4 tutorial series off this website to teach you how it works.

Regards

Tony Jay

[jeremyrh]

I had a similar issue to you, in that my prints seemed too dark using Hahnemuhle FA Pearl paper in a R3000, even with the correct profile, LR manages colour etc etc etc. Like you I experimented with the Brightness and Contrast sliders and consumed a lot of paper and ink, but unlike you I found that they DID make a difference, to the point where I can define a new "default" setting for this paper. I guess that is not much help to you ... 

[eliedinur]

Me too. Brightness 20, Contrast 5 does it for me. (R1900/Premium Luster)

[SkipA]

OK -- but for some reason I couldn't appreciate any difference in my prints with that approach. Am I correct, though, that tweaking a soft-proofed virtual copy, so as to attempt to match the on-screen appearance of the master image, is a separate, independent way of accomplishing this goal, and thus would not require the use of the Print Adjustment sliders which don't appear to work for me?

My goal is to be able to include a reliably repeatable adjustment (either a "pre-print" adjustment in the Develop module or a Print Adjustment setting in the Print module) that would essentially work well for most images printed on the same paper and could be included in a pre-print preset. This is what I had become used to in LR3 and worked well for me there.

Skip

[Rand47]

OK -- but for some reason I couldn't appreciate any difference in my prints with that approach. Am I correct, though, that tweaking a soft-proofed virtual copy, so as to attempt to match the on-screen appearance of the master image, is a separate, independent way of accomplishing this goal, and thus would not require the use of the Print Adjustment sliders which don't appear to work for me?

...
Skip

Absolutely!  In fact Jeff "hints" that the print module adjustments are more or less useless if one soft proofs appropriately (assuming a properly profiled monitor w/ appropriate luminance value).

[digitaldog]

The sliders are a ‘hack’ suited for those who don’t have their color management in line (proper display calibration targets, soft proofing, really good profiles etc).

[RFPhotography]

OK -- but for some reason I couldn't appreciate any difference in my prints with that approach. Am I correct, though, that tweaking a soft-proofed virtual copy, so as to attempt to match the on-screen appearance of the master image, is a separate, independent way of accomplishing this goal, and thus would not require the use of the Print Adjustment sliders which don't appear to work for me?

Yes.

My goal is to be able to include a reliably repeatable adjustment (either a "pre-print" adjustment in the Develop module or a Print Adjustment setting in the Print module) that would essentially work well for most images printed on the same paper and could be included in a pre-print preset. This is what I had become used to in LR3 and worked well for me there.

Skip

Difficult.  Every image is different.  Different development  Different colours.  Different gamut.  I don't think (could be wrong) that there's a way to save softproof adjustments specifically as a preset either to allow just those to be applied to separate images.  It really is an image by image process. 

[jeremyrh]

The sliders are a ‘hack’ suited for those who don’t have their color management in line (proper display calibration targets, soft proofing, really good profiles etc).

One could argue that using the brightness slider is no more a "hack" than turning down the brightness of the screen 

[Tony Jay]

Not if you want consistent results!

Regards

Tony Jay

[digitaldog]

One could argue that using the brightness slider is no more a "hack" than turning down the brightness of the screen 

I could argue it easily (want to go there?).

A print is either too dark or it isn’t. Got nothing to do with the screen. A print might match the screen, might not. Different story. One slider affects the output (and only in a single application while leaving the RGB values alone). The other slider affects the display and leaves all files in all applications alone and consistently. So yup, I think the sliders that affect a document that is too dark, solely for a print, in a single application is a hack. People can use it (they can use a preset or adjustment layer in say Photoshop). As long as they understand the causes and effect of the problem, fine with me. Now if you want a print that isn’t too dark and you want it to match the display, the hack isn’t going to help one bit.

[jeremyrh]

I could argue it easily (want to go there?).

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Really, whatever else you had to say, I tuned out right there - enough internet "tough guys" around without bothering with another.

[digitaldog]

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Really, whatever else you had to say, I tuned out right there - enough internet "tough guys" around without bothering with another.

It is a reply to your initial post about arguing (One could argue that using the brightness slider is no more a "hack" than turning down the brightness of the screen). You brought up the word, now you don’t like that I’m agreeing to argue? Odd.

[jeremyrh]

It is a reply to your initial post about arguing (One could argue that using the brightness slider is no more a "hack" than turning down the brightness of the screen). You brought up the word, now you don’t like that I’m agreeing to argue? Odd.

Argument is fine - if by that you mean argument as a logical process. When it descends to bar-room style language ("want to go there?"), then count me out.

[digitaldog]

Argument is fine - if by that you mean argument as a logical process. When it descends to bar-room style language ("want to go there?"), then count me out.

Bar-room style language? Where?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Two different cases. Lets assume that we have a reference image and that reference image prints to dark. Than we have some problem with our setup. The brightness/contrast sliders in the print pane may be a workaround.

The other case is that the reference image prints OK but our own images print to dark. That probably depends on the screen being to bright.

I would recommend anyone to download a good test image, like the digital dog ( http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Printer_Test_file.jpg.zip ) or Bill Atkinson's profiles (which I cannot find on the net right now). Assure it is correctly tagged with the correct color space and send to a professional lab for printing. Than you have a reasonable reference print. Now print it yourself. If your print is a good approximation of the reference print you are probably OK and should check your screen settings, adjust brightness to perhaps 90 candela/m^2 (or whatever is recommended).


Check also this: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml

Best regards
Erik

I could argue it easily (want to go there?).

A print is either too dark or it isn’t. Got nothing to do with the screen. A print might match the screen, might not. Different story. One slider affects the output (and only in a single application while leaving the RGB values alone). The other slider affects the display and leaves all files in all applications alone and consistently. So yup, I think the sliders that affect a document that is too dark, solely for a print, in a single application is a hack. People can use it (they can use a preset or adjustment layer in say Photoshop). As long as they understand the causes and effect of the problem, fine with me. Now if you want a print that isn’t too dark and you want it to match the display, the hack isn’t going to help one bit.

[Schewe]

What on earth is that supposed to mean?

It means whatever you THINK it means...and the odds are you don't have a friggin' clue what it REALLY means (and I do and don't completely disagree with Andrew thinks it means although my opinion is slightly tempered).

Since you are not the OP, exactly what are are you complaining about?

Andrew thinks the Brightness and Contrast sliders are a bad idea in the Print module (that's really what Andrew is referring to)...

I understand what Andrew means..and I don't strongly disagree except to say that nobody less that Thomas Knoll outlined the "gamma" adjustment that was incorporated in the LR4 Print module...

So if somebody (you) is claiming some sort of "bar room brawl" to the preceding posts, I gotta say "what are you smoking dooode"? And to add, you may want to taper off your smoking...

[jeremyrh]

It means whatever you THINK it means...and the odds are you don't have a friggin' clue what it REALLY means (and I do and don't completely disagree with Andrew thinks it means although my opinion is slightly tempered).

Since you are not the OP, exactly what are are you complaining about?

Andrew thinks the Brightness and Contrast sliders are a bad idea in the Print module (that's really what Andrew is referring to)...

I understand what Andrew means..and I don't strongly disagree except to say that nobody less that Thomas Knoll outlined the "gamma" adjustment that was incorporated in the LR4 Print module...

So if somebody (you) is claiming some sort of "bar room brawl" to the preceding posts, I gotta say "what are you smoking dooode"? And to add, you may want to taper off your smoking...

Like I said - "enough internet "tough guys" around without bothering with another".