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Author Topic: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?  (Read 3064 times)

david distefano

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on some sites that i have read, they say this combination is not possible. has anyone on this site tried it. i thought this would be a good combination to go with a cfv-50 i am planning to purchase because of the amount of movement it would allow. sensor diagonal of 61mm and lens circle of 70mm.
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gazwas

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 05:16:10 pm »

Which Arca 6x9?
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david distefano

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 10:45:08 am »

the f metric
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Rod.Klukas

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 12:19:44 pm »

on some sites that i have read, they say this combination is not possible. has anyone on this site tried it. i thought this would be a good combination to go with a cfv-50 i am planning to purchase because of the amount of movement it would allow. sensor diagonal of 61mm and lens circle of 70mm.

While the lens might be useable on a M-Line Monolith.  It will be next to impossible to accurately focus.  I have had several customers try and the best was 40-50% of the time their pictures were sharp.  On a RM3di camera with the focusing helical you accurately and consistently focus this lens and easily use up to 210mm on the camera as well.  The R body has rise/fall, Lateral shift, and tilt incorporated into the body.  And it will allow cover formats up to 6x9, assuming the lens will cover.  At this time we are the only tech camera capable of this coverage.
The camera is also very light and compact, so easily transportable.  Here is a video on the camera:  vimeo.com/24366528

I have shot both film and digital on mine with no difficulties.
Rod
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Doug Peterson

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 01:04:27 pm »

One of those instances where "possible" and "recommended" are not the same thing.

If you're in the US (or traveling here soon) we'd be happy to show you the 23HR on an RM3Di (or other R series camera).

As Rod details they were built from the ground up, not just to work with lenses like the 23HR, but to work with them extremely well. It will give you controlled, repeatable, easy to make movements, focusing, and stitching. This is a stark contrast to the exercise-in-frustration of using a super-wide with a traditional view camera (even one as well made as an f-metric).

david distefano

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2012, 03:11:27 pm »

thank you for your responses. unfortunately they is no way that my wife will allow me to purchase the second arca camera plus the cfv-50 and the 23mm lens. i will still get the back but when i want to go really wide i will go with 4x5 film and schneider 38mm xl or 47mm xl lenses since i already have them and the 4x5 back for the 6x9. saving some money will keep the wife happy and when she's happy, i'm happy.
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torger

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 09:36:45 am »

The rodenstock 23mm is a retrofocus design and has a flange focal distance of 44.8mm. This is not far from what the 47mm xl has. So gearing-wise on the focus rail it should be no more difficult, right? But why is then the 23mm so much harder to focus? Is it too hard to see the DOF on the ground glass, or is it something else?

If you don't need perfect focus distance but instead satisfy with putting the focus point somwhere between hyperfocal and infinity for f/11, will you manage to do that?
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Stefan.Steib

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 12:49:41 pm »

Torger

The flange focal length is not really informative. If you take a look at the data sheet of Rodenstock you may see the more informational value for s’A∞ (see also Schneider´s doku)

http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/e_Rodenstock_Digital_Lenses_3-26__8236.pdf

you can read infact that D=44,8mm(Flange focal length)  but you have to deduct E=22,8mm (Flange to lens end) so the distance from the back lens to the chip at infinity is only 22,0 mm !

This measurement is also called s’A∞, the according values for the Schneider 24mm XL are only 12mm !!! on the other hand a Canon TS-E 24mm V2 has 60 mm s’A∞.

regards
Stefan
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 01:35:15 pm by Stefan.Steib »
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david distefano

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 01:28:54 pm »

i just read on the capture integration website that the rm2/3d front standard can be used on my 6x9 f metric. would there be much in the way of monetary savings in going this route over the purchase of a complete rm2/3d camera system? are there any other logistical problems that would come up?
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torger

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 03:43:48 pm »

This measurement is also called s’A∞, the according values for the Schneider 24mm XL are only 12mm !!! on the other hand a Canon TS-E 24mm V2 has 60 mm s’A∞.

Thanks, did not know that. But is it really lens end that decides the range of movement infinity-to-near-limit? I thought it was approximately distance to the nodal point, and that that is typically very close to the FFL (the shutter). So if two lenses have the same nodal point distance but different focal lengths, the focusing movement range (and thus precision requirement) should be the same, not true?

I guess with modern lens designs this simple geometric does not work... is it possible in some way from the docs to find out how much the lens moves from infinity to near limit? When one has a bellows camera that is interesting info indeed.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:49:20 pm by torger »
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TH_Alpa

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 03:48:17 pm »

Rod,

with all due respect and unless I misunderstand your claim and statement, that is not true:

ALPA back adapter 6x9

Fits all Alpa 12 cameras and since years available.

Best regards
Thierry

...  And it will allow cover formats up to 6x9, assuming the lens will cover.  At this time we are the only tech camera capable of this coverage ...
Rod

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Stefan.Steib

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 05:05:16 pm »

Torger

that´s the so called ray angle.
And unfortunately this data is not available, neither from Rodenstock nor from Schneider (I would say this is a real disinformation and should be demanded in the future by users , as this number would define how far this lens could go with an also defined index a chip could deliver, so everybody could know how many megapixel at which pixel size and which angle - even with movements -  a lens chip combo could deliver without color shift !).

But it is fairly obvious that the Schneider XL Ray angle is way more flatter than the Rodenstock HR retrofocus one, not to speak of the Canon 24mm TSE.
In theory you could calculate this angle by the diameter of the rear lens, the s’A∞ (in German Anlagemaß- I did not find the appropriate translation in English - maybe Lens flange distance ?) and the image circle. To be honest I do not know the formula and as every lens has 2 mainpoints you would have to know the front, but also the back main points to define the distance properly. So without an optical definition of a lens and some formula from the construction data (for example the data that was used to calculate the MTF´s) it may be nearly impossible to calculate this yourself.

regards
Stefan
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 07:04:45 pm »

i just read on the capture integration website that the rm2/3d front standard can be used on my 6x9 f metric. would there be much in the way of monetary savings in going this route over the purchase of a complete rm2/3d camera system? are there any other logistical problems that would come up?


David -

Using the RM3Di (for example) as the front standard on your F-Metric really only eliminates the need/desire for the VarioFinder. The base R camera consists of the RM2D/RM3DiRL3D body, VarioFinder, Digital Back Interface (which would be required for the F-Metric anyway), and of course, the lenses mounted in R Bayonet. You wouldn't really save much (the cost of the VarioFinder, perhaps). And actually, while this isn't necessarily a bad idea, you're approach is from the opposite direction than what usually makes sense. Meaning, one would normally start with an RM3Di, then perhaps add an F-Metric or M-Monolith/M-Two to expand on the available movements, introduce bellows extension, etc. Using the F-Metric with a wide lens and focusing through ground glass is not ideal.

So - what it really comes down to is that if shooting really wide is at the critical end of your application, then the RM3Di makes sense regardless. Whether you would also choose to integrate it with your F-Metric (ideally with longer lenses) would be a potential path. But you could then also take the lenses for your F-Metric and mount them in R Bayonet and have 1 lens set with either configuration, since there is a lens plate with a R Bayonet screw-in for use with the F-Metric without also having to mount it in the RM3Di.


Steve Hendrix

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torger

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2012, 01:58:13 am »

So without an optical definition of a lens and some formula from the construction data (for example the data that was used to calculate the MTF´s) it may be nearly impossible to calculate this yourself.

Thanks, very useful information.
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david distefano

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Re: can the rodenstock 23mm digital hr lens be used on arca-swiss 6x9?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 11:59:01 am »

steve i was wanting the 23mm lens to round out my lens selection. you are absolutely right, if i were to be shooting the 23mm as my primary lens, then the purchase of the rm2/3d would be the direction that i would have to go. but its use would be no more then any other lens so as i said in an earlier post at this point in time if i want super wide i would use my arca swiss with the 4x5 back, film and schneider 38mm xl or 47 mm xl.  thank you for all you info. i will most definitely keep your company in mind when i am able to pull the trigger. the camera looks amazing and i know that the craftsmanship will be top notch since i own an arca swiss and i love the camera.
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