Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 11   Go Down

Author Topic: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)  (Read 78596 times)

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Lifting shadows can be for high SBR scenes, not just fixing exposure errors
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2012, 01:52:18 pm »

You know, the only time I've ever felt the need to pull the shadows a couple of stops is when I maxed out my 1Ds3 at ISO3200.

Other than that I correctly exposed the image and knew how to use my equipment.
That might be all that matters for you, and maybe for a great many other photographers, but to repeat what has been said in other threads:
Pulling up the shadows by several stops is not always about correcting for errors in exposure or not knowing how to use the equipment. Sometimes it is done to deal with scenes of very high subject brightness range, where a "straight" print with realistic contrast level and tone curve would either lose interesting shadowed parts of the scene into blackness or blow-out brightly lit parts of the scene. In other words, dodging poorly lit parts of the scene, which is sometimes preferable to using ND grad filters or HDR blending of multiple exposures.

I note that Canon offers a convenient in-camera HDR mode in the 5D3, so it is aware that extra DR is sometimes needed by some photographers!
Logged

DiaAzul

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 777
    • http://photo.tanzo.org/
Re: Higher DR not the same as lower noise in prints
« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2012, 01:56:00 pm »

Looking at those other two measures, the quick summary is that:
1. the 5D3 improves significantly over the 5D2 at all exposure index ("ISO speed") settings
2. the 5D3 and D800 are very close, in the resolution-corrected "print" comparisons.
3. In per pixel "screen" comparisons, then D800 about matches the 5D2 and trails the 5D3.

See Dx0 comparisons

Many thanks - I hadn't seen the charts before, only the summary figures. That makes a lot more sense.
Logged
David Plummer    http://photo.tanzo.org/

NancyP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #142 on: April 26, 2012, 10:54:36 am »

Canon DX amateur here, rudely nosing in among my betters.   :D

I am more peeved at the possibility that Apple may be abandoning its power-user desktop line Mac Pro.

There's a huge range of users out there, and a huge number of niches in the camera market. Canon does a good job for a large percent of the DSLR niches.

The Canon lens lineup has some items lacking in the Nikon lens lineup, very attractive to certain users. I like the feather-light, hand-holdable, and downright cheap 400mm f5.6 L (no Nikon equivalent) for birding on hikes, and on the other extreme, the MPE65 1x-5x macro lens (no Nikon equivalent) has fans who appreciate not having to putz with bellows in the field (yeah, I know, cry me a river, complaints about bellows on a landscape website with large-format users). The Nikon lens lineup is on average pricier than the Canon equivalents. The Nikon 12-24mm is a unique lens, with enough Canon users wanting it that Novoflex markets an adapter to Canonites craving the Nikon lens.

I am not going to discount Canon's ability to come up with improved sensors and in-camera data engines. Neither am I going to deny Nikon and Sony their props. It will be a long time before I "run out of camera" on my mid-level 60D - I need eye/brain upgrades more than equipment upgrades at this point.

BTW, has anyone used "GigaPan" motorized panorama head? Apparently it stitches an at least 20 2-axis pano image panel on the fly. If the landscape has few moving parts, the potential for resolution is high.

Logged

Chris Pollock

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2012, 08:19:47 am »

I have a pretty big investment in Canon lenses, and was becoming increasingly frustrated with the autofocus limitations of my 5D Mark II, so I bought a 5D Mark III shortly after they went on sale here in Australia. It has many improvements over its predecessor, but my own informal tests and real world photos indicate that the sensor isn't one of them. It's a little better, at least at high ISO, but not dramatically so.

Based on what I've read about the D800, I would recommend it over the 5D Mark III to anyone who doesn't already own Canon lenses. I don't consider switching brands to be an option for me, because switching my lens collection would be such an ordeal, and Canon might well regain the lead with their next sensor design.

However, all the rave reviews of the D800's sensor are making me wonder if it would be worth owning both brands. It's not the resolution that appeals to me so much, but the dynamic range.

I actually own one Nikon lens, the 14-24 F2.8, which I've been using on my Canons with an adaptor. Using it on a Nikon body would obviously be a lot more convenient. If I got the Nikon 24-70 F2.8 (or maybe a few primes) I could use the Nikon for wider shots, and the Canon for telephoto. Carying an extra body around wouldn't add much weight, and might even be convenient since it would reduce the need to change lenses.

The only down side that I can think of (admittedly a big one) would be the cost. I'm not poor, but I'm far from rich.

Does this sound crazy? Does anyone else use both Nikon and Canon? Has anyone been tempted to do so? Would it be problematic apart from the cost, a bit like polygamy?
Logged

EgillBjarki

  • Guest
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2012, 09:13:12 am »

I have a pretty big investment in Canon lenses, and was becoming increasingly frustrated with the autofocus limitations of my 5D Mark II, so I bought a 5D Mark III shortly after they went on sale here in Australia. It has many improvements over its predecessor, but my own informal tests and real world photos indicate that the sensor isn't one of them. It's a little better, at least at high ISO, but not dramatically so.

Based on what I've read about the D800, I would recommend it over the 5D Mark III to anyone who doesn't already own Canon lenses. I don't consider switching brands to be an option for me, because switching my lens collection would be such an ordeal, and Canon might well regain the lead with their next sensor design.

However, all the rave reviews of the D800's sensor are making me wonder if it would be worth owning both brands. It's not the resolution that appeals to me so much, but the dynamic range.

I actually own one Nikon lens, the 14-24 F2.8, which I've been using on my Canons with an adaptor. Using it on a Nikon body would obviously be a lot more convenient. If I got the Nikon 24-70 F2.8 (or maybe a few primes) I could use the Nikon for wider shots, and the Canon for telephoto. Carying an extra body around wouldn't add much weight, and might even be convenient since it would reduce the need to change lenses.

The only down side that I can think of (admittedly a big one) would be the cost. I'm not poor, but I'm far from rich.

Does this sound crazy? Does anyone else use both Nikon and Canon? Has anyone been tempted to do so? Would it be problematic apart from the cost, a bit like polygamy?


I agree, I am also in a very similar position. If I was not that invested in Canon, I would buy Nikon D800.

I agree with the lenses, but I am very interested in seeing how the new Canon 24-70mm L 2.8 II turns out.

The rest of the industry has to catch up regarding DR if they wanna compete with Nikon. I hope Canon takes this seriously and will make a high MP body with high DR in the near future.

With that being said, I do not feel limited with my 5D Mark III. It has many improvements over Mark II, although I did expected more.
Logged

Chris_Brown

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 975
  • Smile dammit!
    • Chris Brown Photography
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #145 on: April 27, 2012, 10:54:23 am »

If I was not that invested in Canon, I would buy Nikon D800.

This is the common thread among most professional Canon DSLR users who want the best still image possible. Canon, in their knee-jerk response to the wake of the 5D2, has left the studio/corporate/fashion still shooter behind.

The 1Dx supposedly has excellent results at high ISO settings, and has an improved high-speed burst capture rate, and better auto-focus mechanics. These features fall squarely in the realm of the photojournalist.

Let's hope the reality about the 1Dx sensor lives up to its hype.
Logged
~ CB

Petrus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 952
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #146 on: April 27, 2012, 11:27:18 am »

Does anyone else use both Nikon and Canon? Has anyone been tempted to do so? Would it be problematic apart from the cost, a bit like polygamy?

I think it depends on what kind of photography you would be doing. If it is fast paced action photography it would be practically impossible to use two different cameras at the same time. In the old times it took me about 3 months to unlearn/learn to use Nikon/Canon professionally when switching brands, just because the focus and aperture rings turned in the opposite ways. Now, with autofocus and all it is considerably easier, but I noticed just yesterday that even using D800 and D4 for a few days made me clumsy with my 5D2 I have used daily for several years. Using a Canon 5D2 and Fuji X-Pro1 at the same time does not present the same problems, as they are so different to begin with.

If shooting mostly landscapes and other not so fast moving subjects having two different cameras would not pose quite the same problems, but I would consider just switching brands all the way, maybe starting with a smaller, well thought out set of lenses to minimize the inevitable financial pain...
Logged

Chris Pollock

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #147 on: April 27, 2012, 11:25:33 pm »

If shooting mostly landscapes and other not so fast moving subjects having two different cameras would not pose quite the same problems, but I would consider just switching brands all the way, maybe starting with a smaller, well thought out set of lenses to minimize the inevitable financial pain...
Probably as soon as I sold my last Canon lens, Canon would announce a new model with a 50 megapixel sensor, 16 stops of dynamic range, and almost no noise at ISO 25,800. :)
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #148 on: April 28, 2012, 12:59:50 am »

Probably as soon as I sold my last Canon lens, Canon would announce a new model with a 50 megapixel sensor, 16 stops of dynamic range, and almost no noise at ISO 25,800. :)

Good point! Particularly in view of the fact that Photokina will be held this September. Canon must surely be pulling out all the stops to produce a camera that rivals the D800. The 5D3 is already on a par with the D800 at very high ISO. Surely all they need to do is boost the analog signal at base ISO, as they currently do at high ISO, in order to reduce noise at lower ISOs. I guess all that would be required are larger and more robust transistors and A/D converters to handle the greater signal.
Logged

hjulenissen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2051
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2012, 07:55:42 am »

Canon must surely be pulling out all the stops to produce a camera that rivals the D800.
I have no doubt that Canon closely monitors the market, sales, debate forums like this, and quite possibly the internal development within Nikon.

Did they throw away all existing plans at the release of the D800 to make a worthy competitor? My guess is no, the development time for a given camera is probably measured in several years, and the development of new sensor technology may be on the order of 5 years (wild guesswork). It is possible that Canon have the resources to develop a large number of radically different camera/sensors in parallell, and pick only those needed at introduction date, but I doubt that it makes business sense.

Canon (and Nikon) probably have future products in the pipeline, and will introduce them when they are ready (and when it makes business sense). 
Quote
The 5D3 is already on a par with the D800 at very high ISO. Surely all they need to do is boost the analog signal at base ISO, as they currently do at high ISO, in order to reduce noise at lower ISOs. I guess all that would be required are larger and more robust transistors and A/D converters to handle the greater signal.
I think that if improved DR at base ISO was simple, everyone would offer it. The fact that Sony sensors are doing better than most others in this department, and have so for some time, suggests to me that Sony are doing something clever that the others cannot (either due to patents, expensive existing production lines, priority of video or something else.)

-h
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4067
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2012, 10:46:04 am »


I actually own one Nikon lens, the 14-24 F2.8, which I've been using on my Canons with an adaptor. Using it on a Nikon body would obviously be a lot more convenient. If I got the Nikon 24-70 F2.8 (or maybe a few primes) I could use the Nikon for wider shots, and the Canon for telephoto. Carying an extra body around wouldn't add much weight, and might even be convenient since it would reduce the need to change lenses.



Chris, what adapter are you using? for the 14-24 on the Canon platform, is the one by Mark Welsh? or another.  How do you set aperture? 

BTW, I agree with your findings on the MKIII, I purchased/returned one pretty quickly.  From my tests, I found really no difference in the lower ISO range and really not that much in the higher range.  Granted I really never plan to use much higher than ISO 2500 unless in a pinch.  I shot my MKII with the 16-35 side by side over several days.  The AF of the MKIII is excellent and at first I was willing to move to it just for that reason, then I read Fred's review and looked at the comparison in the shadows.  My results were pretty similar to him. 

I am sure Canon is watching, but at 53, I am getting quickly to the point of not getting out to where I used to go due to carrying the weight and my back.  If they announce in Photokina, expect mid 2013 and then it will be the D800 launch all over again.  Lenses are a big deal but right now my main loss would be the Canon 24 TS-EII, one lens I use daily and Nikon just doesn't have the same quality yet with their 24.  However I am sure they will come out with something new.  To be honest the side by sides are pretty harsh between the two and makes we wonder where Canon's direction is right now.  Video is not a high priority for me as it seems to be for many others, if I want video, I can use a Sony Nex7 for that. 

IMO Canon took the market by storm in 2002/2003 when they brought the first full frame 35mm to market.  I sold a lot of Nikon gear and moved to Canon.  Here I go again.   :) 

Paul


Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:10 am »

What's this!! Canon being dissed and the great Canonista army is not throwing itself like howling wolves upon those who dare question the most sacred and beloved article of their faith if not their lives!!

Verily the world has turned.

I bought into the marque 6 years ago and soon began to regret it. True, it was not a flagship model but the colours were cold and dull, the AF indecisive, exposure erratic and generally I seemed to spend more time gnashing my teeth over lost opportunities than I ever did taking photos. Venturing upon various forums with my observations, yes this one as well, I was ripped to shreds, my integrity dismissed, my ability scorned, experience scoffed at and what intelligence I might have been born with viciously torn asunder and gleefully danced upon. Indeed so consistent and immediate were the attacks, and I happily call them that, over the various fora that I began to suspect a conspiracy but now I just put it down to a general immaturity of narrow minded keyboard warriors.

Whatever the cause of such behaviour the effect was to turn me off the company altogether and I now harbour a hatred for the wretched things that sets my teeth on edge every time the name is mentioned. Such an attitude is probably unwarranted but I'm not seeking to change it nor will I ever recommend their products to others so if it is true that Canon really do watch the major forums then they fecked up right royally in condoning by their silence the aggression that was directed towards those that questioned the creed.

Edit. Just read through some more of this thread and am very much with those who find the Pentax K5 answering their needs. Pentax really are quite under rated.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:35:13 pm by Justinr »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2012, 04:17:52 pm »

Hi,

I don't think it is feasible, at least for raw images. Technology is quite mature. Canon can reduce read noise at low ISO, but at high ISO your are running into limitations of physics. With JPEG the vendors can cheat a lot.

Best regards
Erik

Probably as soon as I sold my last Canon lens, Canon would announce a new model with a 50 megapixel sensor, 16 stops of dynamic range, and almost no noise at ISO 25,800. :)
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #153 on: May 01, 2012, 12:51:22 am »

I have no doubt that Canon closely monitors the market, sales, debate forums like this, and quite possibly the internal development within Nikon.

Did they throw away all existing plans at the release of the D800 to make a worthy competitor? My guess is no, the development time for a given camera is probably measured in several years, and the development of new sensor technology may be on the order of 5 years (wild guesswork). It is possible that Canon have the resources to develop a large number of radically different camera/sensors in parallell, and pick only those needed at introduction date, but I doubt that it makes business sense.

What tends to happen, as I understand, is that a budget is allocated for certain research projects and various prototypes are produced on a regular basis. Any particular project can be brought forward, and research & development budgets re-allocated, if market circumstances or management priorities change.

I recall reading a news item a number of years ago, 4 or 5 years ago I think, that Canon had succeeded in producing a 30mp sensor. I can't remember what size of sensor that was.

Quote
I think that if improved DR at base ISO was simple, everyone would offer it. The fact that Sony sensors are doing better than most others in this department, and have so for some time, suggests to me that Sony are doing something clever that the others cannot (either due to patents, expensive existing production lines, priority of video or something else.)

Maybe, but not necessarily. I've often wondered why P&S cameras do not have fast frame rates like some DSLRs, such as 6 frames per second or faster. What's the problem? I doubt that the reason is it's too difficult technologically. It's more likely an issue of cost, weight, size, and perceived market demand. The processors would have to be bigger, heavier and/or more expensive in such a camera.

More likely, the people in the marketing department have made a decision that the sales advantages of a P&S camera that has a fast frame rate are outweighed by the disadvantages of higher cost, weight and bulk.

Likewise with Canon DSLRs. It seems that all recent Canon DSLR models employ componentry which can't handle high analog signal levels. This seems to me to be largely a matter of size, weight, and cost. The same process that results in low noise at high ISO, could result in low noise at low ISO, with componentry that can handle higher signal levels.

The main principle in reducing noise, as you probably already know, is to boost the analog signal from the sensor prior to A/D conversion and all other signal processing, not so that over all noise is reduced in absolute terms, (in fact it must be increased to some degree at the time of analog amplification), but so that the noise is less as a proportion of the signal. That is, SNR is improved.

It seems to me, broadly speaking, that Nikon, in conjunction with Sony, are boosting the analog signal, straight off the sensor, by the same degree whatever the ISO setting, whereas Canon boosts only the signals above base ISO. By boosting only high-ISO signals, they can keep their D/A converters and other transistors, smaller and cheaper.

In other words, if Canon were to boost the low-ISO signals by the same degree they boost the high-ISO signals, they would need more robust and more expensive D/A converters.

This might be turning into a long post, but I'd like to mention my experiences with the Canon 50D, because I think they are relevant to the current discussion. This camera has a base ISO of 100. I bought it, and was using it on a European and Russian holiday/river-cruise, before the DXOMark results were published.

When I looked at the DXO graphs for the 50D much later, I was shocked. This camera, according to DXO, has a base ISO of 200. ISO 100 is noted on the ISO-sensitivity graphs as having the same sensitivity as ISO 200. On all other graphs, performance at ISO 100 doesn't get a mention, implying that ISO 200 is the true base ISO of this camera.

However, there's no mention in the Canon manual, or on the camera's menu, that ISO 100 is an expanded ISO. What the f***s going on! Can any smart, technologically gifted person reading this post, tell me?

The reason I'm so pissed off, is that I'd taken hundreds of photos in poorly lit conditions where the use of flash and/or tripod were not allowed, such as various museums and that amazing place, the Hermitage in St Petersberg. I'd used ISO 100 to get the cleanest images possible when I could have got equally clean images at ISO 200 at double the shutter speed, or at least use a sharper aperture such as F4 as opposed to F2.8.

Of course, when confronted with such information, I'm the sort of person who will carry out real-world tests to confirm or disprove the DXO results.

My tests confirmed the DXO results, at least in respect of DR. There appeared to be no advantage whatsoever in using ISO 100 instead of ISO 200 with the 50D. But clearly there is the advantage of the faster shutter speed that ISO 200 affords.

But what about shot noise, I asked myself. Surely double the exposure should result in lower shot noise. So I began scrutinising my test images at greater magnification, magnifying the smooth midtone areas by 400% and even 600%.

At such great magnification on screen, I could discern some slight difference in midtone texture, but it would be totally irrelevant on any print that were not absolutely huge. If anyone who owns a 50D wonders what shot noise looks like, and just how insignificant it can be, then try my experiment comparing ISO 100 with ISO 200.

On the 50D, ISO 100 is not an expanded ISO which results in cleaner shadows but more easily blown highlights. It's an ISO with a slightly better-processed analog boost.

Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #154 on: May 01, 2012, 01:47:48 am »

I recall reading a news item a number of years ago, 4 or 5 years ago I think, that Canon had succeeded in producing a 30mp sensor. I can't remember what size of sensor that was.

Actually it was 120mp

Seems to me Canon was focusing on completely different things with the 5D Mark III (like video .. it's not coincidental the chip is exactly 4:1 pixels of HD video) and better ISO.  Everything points to another camera in the works rumored to be introduced at Photokina, but they really need to "leak" some info soon .. they're losing market share, something they've never had to deal with before.  Perhaps the video market is bigger than it appears so that's why 5D3 is what it is.

But makes me wonder if Canon just doesn't have the technological know how or R&D to compete with where Sony is right now in sensor technology.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #155 on: May 01, 2012, 02:05:59 am »

Actually it was 120mp

Wayne, that wasn't the news item I was referring to. Prior to this 2010 news item you mention, describing a 120mp sensor, there was mention of a 30mp sensor much earlier. But you reinforce my point. Canon would appear to have the technology, but they are not implementing it for some reason, probably economic, and/or poor marketing decisions.
Logged

Justinr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1733
    • Ink+images
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #156 on: May 01, 2012, 04:23:22 am »

Posted by Ray.

Maybe, but not necessarily. I've often wondered why P&S cameras do not have fast frame rates like some DSLRs, such as 6 frames per second or faster. What's the problem? I doubt that the reason is it's too difficult technologically. It's more likely an issue of cost, weight, size, and perceived market demand. The processors would have to be bigger, heavier and/or more expensive in such a camera.

There is probably an element of marketing involved as well, maintaining a clear gap between P&S cameras and DSLR's supports the perceived value of the higher priced type.

As for low light photography then the K5 is the one to go for, I know I keep saying it but it really is.
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #157 on: May 01, 2012, 07:18:06 am »

As for low light photography then the K5 is the one to go for, I know I keep saying it but it really is.

According to DXOMark, the K5 has a very small edge over the Nikon D7000. It has a slightly lower base ISO of 80 and about 1/4 of a stop better DR than the D7000 at its base ISO of 100. Above ISO 1600 there appears to be some 'smoothing' in the K5 going on before the RAW file is written. It's not clear to me what effect this has on resolution, but one imagines there would be some slight loss in detail, compared with the D7000.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #158 on: May 01, 2012, 08:43:09 am »

Firstly, the question is not whether Canon is capable of putting 36MP or 54MP or evej 120MP on a 36x24MP sensor; clearly it can using small enough photosites. The challenge is making such a sensor with adequate dynamic range, low light peformance, and frame rates to be competitive with the rather demanding customers for cameras in 36x24mm format.

As to the technological differences: one important one is quite clear and has been mentioned repeatedly, so it is strange that some people ignore it in their speculations that Canon has simply chosen for commercial reasons not to do something that is clearly bringing great commercial success with the D800, both through its sales and the "halo" effect that a success at the top brings to the rest of the product line through the perception of technological superiority of the brand.

That difference is good 14-bit column parallel analog-to-digital conversion. Sony, at its second atempt, can now make 14 bit ADCs small enough to have one at the bottom of every column of photosites, while all signs are that Canon cannot, yet, and so has t mtransport the analog signal along the sensor's edge to off-board ADCs. This has two disadvantages for Canon:

Firstly, that transportation along the sensor edge is at very high speed, far higher than transfer from photosite to sensor edge, and is significant source of read noise, one that is completely avoided by column parallel ADC. The speed problem is that there is (almost) no parallelism at this stage: the photosite signals have to be read out one after the other, or at most four at a time if there is an output at each corner of the sensor.

Secondly, this same sequential signal transfer stage is a read-out speed bottle-neck, and seems historically to have been the main reason why so many DSLRs have lower frame rates than their film cousins (the exceptions being dedicated highbframe sports/PJ models, with lower pixel counts helping to allow higher frame rates than even more expensive higher resolution models). Sony's column parallel approach seems to eliminate this bottle neck, allowing for example the US$1400 Sony A77 to offer frame rates of 8fps and 12fps with a 24MP sensor, compared to a maximum of 6fps with the 22MP sensor of the US$3500 Canon 5D3.

I suspect that the imagined 54MP Canon camera using the Canon 7D's photosite size would be technically possible, but with unacceptably low frame rate and dynamic range for its market sector.


P. S. and as Wayne says, video was one priority: I predicted the exact pixel count of the 5D2 on the basis that the horizontal count would be exactly three times that of 1920x1080, giving the correct value of 5760. But it would be a sour grapes argument to suggest that Canon abandoned its long drive to be the pre-eminent high resolution brand in 35mm format (and in APS-C format) simply because Canon suddenly abandoned that pursuit in order to make video its top priority in DSLR innovation.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 08:52:17 am by BJL »
Logged

Ray

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10365
Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #159 on: May 01, 2012, 10:56:21 am »


That difference is good 14-bit column parallel analog-to-digital conversion. Sony, at its second atempt, can now make 14 bit ADCs small enough to have one at the bottom of every column of photosites, while all signs are that Canon cannot, yet, and so has t mtransport the analog signal along the sensor's edge to off-board ADCs. This has two disadvantages for Canon:

The patent for this type of technology was issued a long time ago, 12 years ago to be precise. I believe it's held by a Chinese person, Peter Hong Xiao. Refer attached link. http://www.google.com/patents/US6137432

Quote
Firstly, that transportation along the sensor edge is at very high speed, far higher than transfer from photosite to sensor edge, and is significant source of read noise, one that is completely avoided by column parallel ADC. The speed problem is that there is (almost) no parallelism at this stage: the photosite signals have to be read out one after the other, or at most four at a time if there is an output at each corner of the sensor.

Secondly, this same sequential signal transfer stage is a read-out speed bottle-neck, and seems historically to have been the main reason why so many DSLRs have lower frame rates than their film cousins (the exceptions being dedicated highbframe sports/PJ models, with lower pixel counts helping to allow higher frame rates than even more expensive higher resolution models). Sony's column parallel approach seems to eliminate this bottle neck, allowing for example the US$1400 Sony A77 to offer frame rates of 8fps and 12fps with a 24MP sensor, compared to a maximum of 6fps with the 22MP sensor of the US$3500 Canon 5D3.

Decisions as to trade-offs between frame-rate and  pixel count are marketing decisions. 5D3 owners are pleased that there 22mp sensor has a faster frame rate than Nikon's 36.3mp. Making the frame rate even faster may be an issue of additional cost rather than lack of technology.

There seem to be many photographers who think the Canon DR at base ISO is sufficient. Erik Kaffehr of this site, for example, and many studio workers who can control their lighting. Some people are obsessed with deep shadow noise, and others are obsessed with the absolute resolution that the absence of an AA filter may deliver.

I personally am more interested in improved dynamic range, improved image stabilisation, improved 'merge to HDR' software, and improved stitching software that can overcome the lack of a pano head.


Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 11   Go Up