Seeking unbiased thoughts/opinions on Sony SLT/EVF design.

[Sags]

Hello,

I've been a long time reader of LL articles and forums.  Finally decided to post since I haven't seen this topic discussed here, and it has me concerned as of late.

My background is that I've been invested in the Minolta Maxxum/Sony Alpha system since 1991 (I think) when I bought a used Maxxum 9000 as my first SLR.  I've grown with the system since then and despite some uncertain months during the Minolta-Sony transition period have always been pleased with the products.  I do a lot of hobby shooting of wildlife and landscapes, but also have gotten into doing youth sports and engagement/portraiture paid part-time.

Currently in the system I have an A700, A900, 42 and 58 flashguns and a mix of Minolta, Sigma, Tamron and Sony glass.  Currently my gear satisfies all my needs, but I know that in the digital age this won't last forever.  I know there will come a time when these bodies will either break down, or will become outdated enough that I will want the new next-best-thing.

And that is what has me somewhat concerned, for the first time I'm on the fence about Sony's new offerings due to the SLT and electronic viewfinder design.  My leeriness about this new design combined with the release of the D800 has me tempted to sell out and switch to Nikon, however painful that may be financially.  Another factor I've noticed of late is that on the high end telephoto end of factory lenses (which I like/covet for wildlife and sport work), the current Sony offerings seem to cost significantly higher then Nikon.  For example I could buy a Nikon 600/f4 and a D800e for less then the cost of Sony's new 500/f4 alone.

First off the SLT design... we know from looking at DXO scores from the NEX-7 and the A77 that the fixed mirror does make a difference in the laboratory.  But DXO labs is not the real world.  Is this a difference only in statistical measurement, or is there a noticeable "real world" difference.

Secondly the EVF...  I have heard all of the advantages of it, histogram in the VF, exposure changes reflected in the VF, changeable gain in the VF.  But having played with it on an A77 in the store it just didn't "click" for me.  I can't put my finger on it, but I can tell I'm looking at pixels and that bothers me for some reason, like I feel too removed from the scene.   Also when panning, the EVF seemed to lag for a split second after every shot making holding composition tough.

But then on the other hand I'm also convinced that mirrored cameras will all eventually go the way of the dinosaur, and the current Sony Axx series is just an awkward transitional phase, so perhaps I should stick with them even if they bother me, since someday everything may be mirror-less and EVF.

Anyway, I thought I could ask this at Dpreview or Dyxum, but figured I'd get more experienced unbiased opinions here.

So... is my leeriness valid?  Or, am I just an old fogey who can't handle change?


EDIT: I should add that I have read Michael's first impressions on the A77

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony_a77_first_impressions.shtml

and I agree with his assessment of the EVF, better then most many APS sized dim-tunnel VFs, but no match for a FF OVF.

[jeremypayne]

What's wrong with your a900?

[Sags]

What's wrong with your a900?

Nothing at all.

Like I said, I'm satisfied with my current set up, but I think most of us know that feeling of gear envy when the next-best-thing comes out, and who knows if my current Sony bodies will last forever.

It's the future I'm worried about.  Sony seems committed to the SLT design from now on, and I have my reservations about it.   If I'm gonna make the big switch I might as well do it sooner then later, after all my current gear will only depreciate further, and I don't want to invest in a system further if I'm not sure I'll be satisfied with it beyond my current bodies.   I always want more gear, and was thinking of a new lens purchase actually, (the Sony 70-400) which kind of set off this whole chain of thought, I don't want to drop $1400 on a new lens, then decide a year or two later I'm unhappy with the choice of bodies I can use it on.

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

Why not just wait until things settle a bit?
With all that change in sensors and viewfinders - one must be quite a prophet to know what will come up next.

[Fips]

I agree with Christoph. Currently we are just seeing the first generation of really useful EVFs and SLT designs. So if you're happy with the A900, just keep on using it until things settle a bit. I would at least wait with a system switch until this years Photokina.

[Dave Gurtcheff]

Hi Sags:
I have the very  same dilema. I now use a Pentax 645D, and A900 with a bunch of Sony /Minolta lenses. IMHO these two cameras are the easiest and most straight forward digital cameras I heve ever used. I recently got an NEX 7 and 6 E mount lenses. I must say I AM NOT a fan of the EVF---A900 finder runs circles around it. The NEX 7 finder is VERY user unfriendly for left eye shooters like me. I make and sell  very big prints (20"x30" from the A900, and 24"x32" from the 645D). I came this close to pre-ordering a Nikon D800E and manual focus Zeiss 18mm lens in Nikon mount. When I looked at all my Sony/Minolta lenses I came back to my sences. I, too, am waiting to see if Sony comes out with a 36Mp replacement for the A900. If they do, and is an EVF mirrorless camera, I may by-pass it. If Sony does not respond soon, I am jumping ship to Nikon.
Good luck
Dave

[jeremypayne]

Nothing at all.

Like I said, I'm satisfied with my current set up, but I think most of us know that feeling of gear envy when the next-best-thing comes out, and who knows if my current Sony bodies will last forever.

It's the future I'm worried about.  Sony seems committed to the SLT design from now on, and I have my reservations about it.   If I'm gonna make the big switch I might as well do it sooner then later, after all my current gear will only depreciate further, and I don't want to invest in a system further if I'm not sure I'll be satisfied with it beyond my current bodies.   I always want more gear, and was thinking of a new lens purchase actually, (the Sony 70-400) which kind of set off this whole chain of thought, I don't want to drop $1400 on a new lens, then decide a year or two later I'm unhappy with the choice of bodies I can use it on.

Didn't realize you couldn't buy the A900 anymore ...

[douglasf13]

I have replaced my A700/A900 setup with a NEX-5n and NEX-7, and I love the system. I use small, rangefinder lenses, and the system is all about size, to me. The NEX-7's IQ certainly bumps up against what I've done with the A900.  I really like the EVF, because I'm a manual focus guy, and simulating exposure prior to the shot is fantastic, too.

All of that being said, I don't shoot birds, sports or even a lens much longer than 100mm, and I don't do much studio shooting anymore.  If I needed an actual DSLR with fast AF, I think I'd still prefer an OVF, although I am getting spoiled by the exposure preview in the EVF.  I rarely miss an exposure. 

I would probably stick with your A900 for a while and see how things turn out, although, come to think of it, now may be the time to sell your A900, before the value drops any more.  I guess I'm not much help. LOL

[photodan]

There are rumors to the effect that Sony won't be introducing a 36mp camera until next year (perhaps due to an agreement with Nikon re supplying sensors to them for the D800), although they may be announcing an advanced full frame 24mp SLT camera with improved EVF and autofocusing much sooner - see http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/

Your bigger concern might actually be the lenses - long primes - yes that new 500mm f/4 costs a pretty penny, although what the eventually actual selling price once it's really out in the wild so to speak remains to be seen.  There are rumors that new improved long range zooms, like the 70-400mm will be announced this year.

I sold my Alpha 850 because there are no state-of-the-art 35mm focal length lenses that I know of that work on that camera (perhaps I've overlooked some adapter for which I could use manual focus Zeiss or other lenses). Landscape is my primary interest. The 24-70mm Zeiss was good but not quite up to what I'm looking for.  I do a little bit of long lens work and the current 70-400mm is not that bad at 400mm if you get a good copy. Perhaps the forthcoming rumored new version will improve the optics a bit. I was wishing for a 400mm f/4.5 or 500/5.6 prime (due to cost considerations, as compared to 500 f4 etc.), but I suppose there's not much demand for such an animal.  I guess most people that want lenses of highest optical quality results, of longer than 300mm focal length are prepared to pay thousands and thousands for just one such lens, but not me.

I tried the Nex 7 with the Zeiss 24 f/1.8 and the image quality of the photos was very good, similar to what I was getting with my 850 and 24-70mm (I didn't do side by side tests so I'm not sure exactly how close). But I sold the outfit because I couldn't stand that EVF. Small image and hard to see details, in comparison to the viewfinder of the 850. Plus the camera kept focusing all the time unless I shut it off. I never found out if it was a bug, or a feature due to it's focusing method or whatever. I hate these always on always doing something computers with lenses attached to them. That being said, the tri-nav was great, and the outfit was so light and easy to carry. I would imagine that improvements in the EFV, which are surely underway for future models, and the high output quality of the system auger well for the Nex future, as long as Sony comes out with more high quality lenses. And especially if they come out with high quality lenses that aren't large - i.e. perhaps a 26mm f/2.8 prime semi-pancake or something like that.

I sold my Sony outfits and now have a Nikon D800 on order - mainly because I am tired of waiting for Sony to come out with better lenses (better for my purposes), and that I don't want to wait a year for an improved sensor with more MP, regardless of SLT or DSLR, and also so that I have a wider variety of highest quality lenses to choose from.

I actually loved the ergonomics on my Alpha 850 camera body, and the viewfinder, better than any other camera I've ever had. It was reliable and the autofocus as at least as consistent as any other brand I have tried (perhaps similar or better than Nikon, and better than Canon).  And, bang for the buck, the Sony 850 and 900 were very unbeatable in my opinion. I hope that in a year's time Sony will have made more strides with their apparent SLT direction  and in coming out with more highest quality prime lenses, and if their price point is competitive or advantageous  I might be switching back to Sony again. Unlike the 'good old' film camera days, the current digital days certainly seems define a wild and wooly age where frequent change can be the name of the game.

[kirktuck]

I recently bought several of the Sony a77's to use in my business for events, public relations jobs and general work.  I had been shooting with Canon gear for a while but after using the EVFs in the Panasonic Gh2 and the Olympus EP3 with VF2 I have become so used to "pre-chimping" my shots and not wasting time in review mode that I found I worked better with the Sony's.  EMMV but I think the EVF is a plus for my style of shooting and I'm looking forward to Sony's intro of a full frame version in September (if the rumor sites can be believed....).  I won't go back.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I have had most of Sony's DSLRs and now SLTs. Right now I have a Sony Alpha 900 and a Sony Alpha 77 SLT. Here is what I feel so far:

1) I can live with the EVF on the SLT

2) There are no vibrations from the mirror on the SLT, that is a blessing

3) The EVF has virtual horizon which is good when shooting without tripod and it has peaking. I'm not all that enthusiastic about peeking, but it can help sometimes.

4) I use live view for critical focusing.

What I have seen is that when I have the camera on tripod I'm only using the viewfinder for aiming the camera. Then I fold down the LCD and use that for framing, focus and so on. So live view on the LCD may be good enough.

Best regards
Erik

[JimU]

I am in the same situation as you Erik, got a100 in Jan'07, then a900 in Oct'08 which I am satisified with and Maxxum 7 for kicks in Dec'09.  I shoot landscapes and macro

The d800 no doubt looks like a great body with a generation ahead DR, AF, and high ISO noise and SLT seems to have atleast some handicap in ultimate IQ.  I don't use long teles so thats something that you'll have to consider yourself.

I'm going to take a wait & see approach.

• Perhaps SLT technology will improve
• Perhaps EVF technology will improve
• a900 VF is still best in class
• a900 has interchangable focusing screens, d800 doesn't
• I still love my Minolta glass that produces lush colours as opposed to somewhat plasticky colours of nikon

I've found the a900 a rock solid durable and reliable body but I don't expect it to last forever.  Hopefully it'll be a while before I need to consider a replacement, but if I needed to today, I'd consider the d800e with alternative glass, atleast try out the a77 or settle for a100 until I Sony releases their FF replacement and see reviews.

[Fine_Art]

Your A900, A700 will probably still be working in 5 years. By "planning ahead" now with no information on what the camera landscape will look like that far away you are just spinning your wheels giving yourself anxiety. Use your good cameras. Enjoy photography. When the time comes you can easily make the right decision. Pre-planning is not required.

[Lonnie Utah]

• Perhaps SLT technology will improve

SLT is a blip in technology.  When CD AF speed improves, ALL camera makers are going to go mirrorless.  It's simple economics.

[douglasf13]

Photodan, a few points:

- you can use the Zeiss ZS 35/2 on Alpha with a simple adapter, or a ZF version via Leitax.

- The Nex-7 EVF is nearly the same size as the A900's OVF. Certainly not a huge difference.

- Not sure why the AF on the Nex-7 was always on. I think eye start AF only works with the la-ea2 adapter.

[hjulenissen]

SLT is a blip in technology.  When CD AF speed improves, ALL camera makers are going to go mirrorless.  It's simple economics.

How can you be so certain that it will?

If smartphones ever gets more number-crunching power than servers, all servers will disappear, it is simple economics. But as they probably won't, it may not happen, at least not for this reason.

-h

[BJL]

SLT is a blip in technology.  When CD AF speed improves, ALL camera makers are going to go mirrorless.  It's simple economics.

CDAF might or might not ever catch up with PDAF, with the big difference being C-AF for moving subjects. PDAF can in a single measurement know the distance to the subject, and so know whether to shift focus closer or further away, while CDAF only measures how OOF the image currently is, so more hunting in and out is needed. Closing that performance gap needs more than faster electronics; it also requires focus mechanisms that can handle reverses of direction faster, and maybe even that will not be enough with an erratically moving subject. Olympus is now using a new linear stepper motor technology for AF in some new lenses, and that should help, but I do not know how much it will improve C-AF.

There is another technological option that could greatly reduce the need for mirrors and the bulkier, optically compromised lens designs that go with them: putting the PDAF sensor in the main sensor, as is already done in the Nikon One cameras.

So yes, my guess is that (a) SLT is a transitional technology, and (b) Sony should be, and is, working on in-sensor PDAF as the best way to support its legacy of alpha mount SLR lenses, which could then be used on NEX bodies with a simple adaptor.

I wonder if Panasonic or Olympus are working on this too, or if they are doubling down on perfecting their CDAF systems. They talk of pursuing only CDAF, but of course they would not acknowledge that they are trailing a competitor (Nikon).

[JimU]

I vaguely recall hearing that the Nikon 1 AF system is based on CDAF & PDAF and is already superior to sony's SLT AF implementation in terms of speed & accuracy.  Is that true?

[Robert Roaldi]

I don't own one of these, and although it's not obvious (to me) from the "dpreview" review, I think you can view the histogram in the EVF before taking the picture, which is when you really want it. Is this correct? I had that ability with my old Sony R1, and for me it's a good trade-off to give up OVF for a fast-refreshing EVF to have that feature back. I'm surprised it's not mentioned more in the marketing. It introduces yet one more thing to look at in the viewfinder, but it's highly convenient not having to "chimp" every frame, and helps to avoid lots of re-shooting. I'd call that an intelligent use of technology.

[douglasf13]

Yes, it's amazing how much more consistent your exposures get when you have a live histogram.  That andanual focus options are the true forte of a good EVF.