Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence  (Read 10896 times)

jpegman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 129
Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« on: March 13, 2012, 03:57:03 pm »

In LuLa's LR4 tutorial, Jeff makes a strong point in the LR4_2 Develop:Basic that Thomas' method of "Top Down" develop sequence uses the most new advanced adaptability function built into LR4.  Any other sequence, such as mentioned by Michael of some users may prefer to set the white and black points as their preferred starting point, and Jeff replied that these users would squander this adaptability feature built into LR4!

This paradigm shift then begs the question when using "auto-tone" on import - do we also "squander" the adaptability feature of LR4 by using auto-tone?

Logged

JGColeman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
    • J. G. Coleman Photography
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 04:08:37 pm »

Quote
This paradigm shift then begs the question when using "auto-tone" on import - do we also "squander" the adaptability feature of LR4 by using auto-tone?

Hmmm... I'm not exactly following what you're asking here.  Though, using "auto-tone" as anything but a very rough starting point for developing a RAW file is most certainly squandering your opportunity to actually take part in the development process.  That goes for LR3 and LR4.  I can't think of single photo I've ever taken that was ready-to-go after a shot of auto-tone.  So, I'd submit that the "adaptability" of the controls really has very little to do with it... or, at least, that any squandering of adaptability pales in comparison to the control one loses by having an auto-tone algorithm develop their photos for them.

There is a such thing as filling one's head with too much LR "philosophy".
Logged

Schewe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6229
    • http:www.schewephoto.com
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 04:21:33 pm »

Any other sequence, such as mentioned by Michael of some users may prefer to set the white and black points as their preferred starting point, and Jeff replied that these users would squander this adaptability feature built into LR4!

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get across...sorry if I wasn't clear. If you don't do a top down and start with either the Whites/Black of even curves, what you aren't getting the advantage of is the image adaptive processing ranges. If you first set Whites/Black the odds are you are going to be going back up the control set and making further adjustments–which will be impacted by the fact you've already set the white/black points. You can do that–and understand all settings are parametric, so it really doesn't matter what order you set them–the pipeline will always process them its own way. But when you are trying to figure out how best to set an image, I would not start at the bottom. This is different than what many people used to do in Exposure/Blacks in PV 2010.

As far as the auto, it's auto and doesn't really impact anything...
Logged

BobD

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 05:14:59 pm »

Hmmm... I'm not exactly following what you're asking here.  Though, using "auto-tone" as anything but a very rough starting point for developing a RAW file is most certainly squandering your opportunity to actually take part in the development process...
I agree that "Auto-tone" is a rough starting point (although, in LR4-PV2012 "Auto-tone" is so much better that LR3-PV2010).

However, if an initial "Auto-tone" sets the proper “top-down” workflow, then this may lead to a better practice than to use an overly aggressive “Exposure” slider to approach a white point (a legacy from LR3 processing).  Technically the LR4 “Exposure” slider does not effect the white point… this would be the “Whites” slider which is pretty for "down" in the Basic panel.

I guess the simple question is “Does "Auto-tone" take advantage of the adaptive "Highlights" of PV2012 while still finding a White & Black point?"
Logged

Schewe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6229
    • http:www.schewephoto.com
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 05:21:45 pm »

I guess the simple question is “Does "Auto-tone" take advantage of the adaptive "Highlights" of PV2012 while still finding a White & Black point?"

Yes...and you can Shift/Double click the name of each adjustment to get a per adjustment "auto" for that adjustment.
Logged

jpegman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 129
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 05:27:43 pm »

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get across...sorry if I wasn't clear. If you don't do a top down and start with either the Whites/Black of even curves, what you aren't getting the advantage of is the image adaptive processing ranges. If you first set Whites/Black the odds are you are going to be going back up the control set and making further adjustments–which will be impacted by the fact you've already set the white/black points. You can do that–and understand all settings are parametric, so it really doesn't matter what order you set them–the pipeline will always process them its own way. But when you are trying to figure out how best to set an image, I would not start at the bottom. This is different than what many people used to do in Exposure/Blacks in PV 2010.

As far as the auto, it's auto and doesn't really impact anything...

Why "does auto not impact anything..." here, but, not in the overall sequence of things?  Isn't setting "Auto-Tone" the same as starting at the bottom?

Doesn't Auto just set the Black and White points up front, just like Micheal's suggested alternative sequence by some users of manually setting the Black and White points which you said was not ideal.
Logged

Schewe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6229
    • http:www.schewephoto.com
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 06:54:05 pm »

Doesn't Auto just set the Black and White points up front, just like Micheal's suggested alternative sequence by some users of manually setting the Black and White points which you said was not ideal.

I'm not 100% sure of the order in which Auto works, but it's my understanding it basically does a top down evaluation of the image so it will select the Whites and Blacks AFTER it set the previous settings.

I think you need to get past the PV 2010 approach of settings your black and white clip points first...because of the image adaptive nature of PV 2012, you'll need to adjust Whites and Blacks settings far less...that's my experience. To be honest, many advanced LR users are having problems adapting to PV 2012 because they don't understand the fundamental changes in PV 2012. LR 1-3 basically all behaved the same way (even if some of the adjustments got tweaks and improvements). PV 2012 is completely different, hence the new process version. The most important setting in PV 2012 is Exposure followed by the remaining controls. The Whites'Blacks are only needed for tuning the the top and bottom of the top map.
Logged

BobD

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 08:01:08 pm »

... I'm not 100% sure of the order in which Auto works, but it's my understanding it basically does a top down evaluation of the image so it will select the Whites and Blacks AFTER it set the previous settings.

...The most important setting in PV 2012 is Exposure followed by the remaining controls. The Whites'Blacks are only needed for tuning the the top and bottom of the top map.

I agree, that "Exposure" most important setting.  But short of experience, this is difficult to assess. Holding the "Alt" key while sliding "Exposure" will surely produce the wrong results. Select the wrong "Exposure" adjustment (no matter how attained) has a domino effect when addressing the "top down" approach for the the lower sliders. 

That is why I was hoping that Thomas has "Auto-tone" working "top down" so we can use "Auto" as the 1st step... then continue the adjustments without "squander" any detail existing in the raw file.

Pressing "Auto" seems always to adjust the "Blacks" setting - as well as other sliders - in a way I would never arrive at. Once I adjust my "Exposure"  & "Highlights" I very rarely adjust my "Whites" - yet the "Whites" are adjusted significantly in "Auto tone" which seems counter intuitive to the benefits of the new adaptive and very powerful "Highlight" adjustment.

I would be good to now how "Auto-tone" actually works.

Thanks for your time.
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 05:21:48 am »

I have been reading through a few of the threads about "problems" in using the new 2012 process. Would it not be better to wait till someone authors a good book and then study it? There is a lot of advice on the internet about it but not any agreement on best practise. What is annoying is someone stating that they would like to see such and such slider doing something other than what it was designed for. Remember it is early days and you can even go back and use earlier versions till
everything becomes clearer?

eliedinur

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 328
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 07:59:58 am »

Quote
Would it not be better to wait till someone authors a good book and then study it?
Or authors a good video. Oh, wait a minute........
Logged
Roll over Ed Weston,
Tell Ansel Adams th

Eric Myrvaagnes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22813
  • http://myrvaagnes.com
    • http://myrvaagnes.com
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 10:52:01 am »

Or authors a good video. Oh, wait a minute........
+1.

And Jeff Schewe has patiently explained the bug about curves several times in various threads here on LuLa. The other complaints I've seen fit mainly into the "I wish it worked just the same as LR3" category, or else into the "I want more features but faster processing on my Commodore 64" category.
Logged
-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 07:03:06 am »

Or they don't want features that they don't use themselves despite the fact some people find them useful. I don't see the point of auto in a workflow if you are an experienced user of LR or PS? To me it is an arbitrary setting that probably adds work if you have a reasonable understanding of the process. If you are new to processing then it is attractive. 

JGColeman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
    • J. G. Coleman Photography
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 11:08:04 am »

Quote
I don't see the point of auto in a workflow if you are an experienced user of LR or PS? To me it is an arbitrary setting that probably adds work if you have a reasonable understanding of the process. If you are new to processing then it is attractive.

Agreed.  I've rarely seen anything useful come out of auto-tone.  In my experience, even if auto-tone does get somewhere in the ballpark by sheer luck, tweaking the fine points is usually better-achieved by backing up to a zeroed starting point and working from the ground up, rather than just nudging a slider or two with the auto-toned settings in place.
Logged

Robert55

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 03:35:42 pm »

I agree, that "Exposure" most important setting.  But short of experience, this is difficult to assess.
...
That is why I was hoping that Thomas has "Auto-tone" working "top down" so we can use "Auto" as the 1st step... then continue the adjustments without "squander" any detail existing in the raw file.

I agree with both these points: we'll have to gain experience, a new feel, for the behaviour of the new sliders.

If auto-tone indeed works from the top-down, it would indeed make a good starting point. I've often toggled between default and auto to decide on a starting point. I don't believe 'zeroing everything' [whatever that exactly means] is the better apporach.
Logged

JGColeman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
    • J. G. Coleman Photography
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 07:48:47 pm »

Quote
I don't believe 'zeroing everything' [whatever that exactly means] is the better apporach.

You take all the sliders (ideally with a pre-made preset) and set them to zero.  Voila! That's what that means.  It's not exactly a mystical process.  Am I missing something here?

===

And, come to think of it, if you don't understand what "zeroing everything" means, then how can you possibly have an opinion as to whether or not that's a "better approach"?



« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 08:20:15 pm by JGColeman »
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 05:00:18 am »

I believe it is "better" to build something up from a base level than to start from what is essentially a guess from the software. LR can't think - unlike humans - so why trust it's "judgement"? An imported image that is on the threshold of over exposure will probably look over exposed after an auto tune has been applied. Some complain the zeroed image looks flat. So what? It is the photographers job to improve the image to his/hers liking. The reason photographers shoot raw as opposed to jpeg is that they don't want the software in their camera guessing as to the look of their images, so why trust the LR?

Robert55

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 80
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 01:19:19 pm »

You take all the sliders (ideally with a pre-made preset) and set them to zero.  Voila! That's what that means.  It's not exactly a mystical process.  Am I missing something here?
===
And, come to think of it, if you don't understand what "zeroing everything" means, then how can you possibly have an opinion as to whether or not that's a "better approach"?
Thank you for your kind words. I could not find an appropriate smiley, so you'll have to imagine one.
Apparently I have not have not expressed myself clearly.

What I meant is this. Sometimes people want an approach in which they can go as close to possible to the raw sensor data, that is without any adjustments such as the curve that LR/ACR applies. That is what I meant by 'zeroing', not setting the sliders to zero which gives you what I'd call the default conversion.
Logged

JGColeman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
    • J. G. Coleman Photography
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2012, 01:44:33 pm »

Thank you for your kind words. I could not find an appropriate smiley, so you'll have to imagine one.
Apparently I have not have not expressed myself clearly.

What I meant is this. Sometimes people want an approach in which they can go as close to possible to the raw sensor data, that is without any adjustments such as the curve that LR/ACR applies. That is what I meant by 'zeroing', not setting the sliders to zero which gives you what I'd call the default conversion.

Well, sorry if I was a bit harsh... it's just that you basically tried to write me off in passing with a single sentence, as if I was advocating some sort of ludicrous, misinformed technique.  I'd expect that sort of response if I really was recommending an odd-ball method, but I think the concept of zeroing everything is a pretty standard approach.  So, yes... it rubbed me the wrong way.

Since you can apply develop presets to your files on import (as I would imagine many LR users do), what people think of as the "default settings" or "default conversion" can be virtually limitless in configuration.  It seems more practical to refer to "zeroing everything" when you're talking about setting all sliders to the zero position.

All that aside, though, I gather now that we are roughly in agreement that a 'zeroed' or 'default' conversion is a perfectly legit starting point.  For my own purposes, I simply find it more practical to start with everything at zero, rather than trying to reverse and "undo" any excesses introduced by auto-tone.  In some instances, auto-tone makes development choices that are rather strange; working backwards from auto-tone just seems to me to be the "long way around", so to speak.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 01:47:39 pm by JGColeman »
Logged

BobD

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2012, 09:02:11 am »

I'm not 100% sure of the order in which Auto works, but it's my understanding it basically does a top down evaluation of the image so it will select the Whites and Blacks AFTER it set the previous settings.

I think you need to get past the PV 2010 approach of settings your black and white clip points first...because of the image adaptive nature of PV 2012,
... The most important setting in PV 2012 is Exposure followed by the remaining controls.
With the new release of LuLa LR4 video 8: "Develop Tip: Basic on Auto" - it seems that "Auto" does work (or at least considers) the sliders from the "top-down".

I think my initial approach will be to start with "Auto"-tone and keep my eyes "and mind" open.

Thanks for the videos
Logged

BobD

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Re: Auto Tone vs LR4 Develop Module Adapted Workflow Sequence
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2012, 09:10:44 am »

I'm not 100% sure of the order in which Auto works, but it's my understanding it basically does a top down evaluation of the image so it will select the Whites and Blacks AFTER it set the previous settings.
Jeff,

Kismet being what it is... "exactly" at the same time I sent my post 1 minute ago... I received this response from Eric Chan at the Adobe forum... http://forums.adobe.com/message/4275440#4275440

Let the word go forth:
"Yes, Auto Tone essentially works top-down.
 
No, Auto Tone does not lose PV 2012's adaptive highlights & shadows capabilities.  Instead, it leverages them.
 
Yes, it takes advantage of the adaptive highlights/shadows of PV2012 while still finding a white & black point."
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up