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Author Topic: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic  (Read 4216 times)

jeremypayne

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ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« on: March 13, 2012, 11:45:02 am »

In another thread, a member of the community has claimed that Olympus and Panasonic cameras aren't suitable for ETTR because of color shifts due to different kinds of green sensels that behave in unexpected ways as they approach saturation.

I've seen no evidence of this in my own use of a Panasonic GF1 with which I practice ETTR on a regular basis.

Can anyone shed light on this subject?

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deejjjaaaa

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 12:35:45 pm »

that behave in unexpected ways as they approach saturation.

I guess he was talking about the situation when one green channel might be clipped already and another not yet (for example) - about the areas where the data for some G1 sensels are clipped and for for G2 sensels (RG1BG2 bayer) nearby are not yet clipped... I never saw that really on GH2, but I did not try to find such case intentionally...

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image66

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 12:56:53 pm »

Jeremy, give me a day or two to get some evidence together for you. I'm in the midst of a string of 16 hour days here. But do note that my ETTR advice isn't a yes/no thing, but one of knowing just how much additional margin you need to give the exposure depending on color.

There are six basic colors we need to consider: Red, Green, Blue, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. Along with that we have combined luminance. None of these clip at the same point.

Consider what happens with the color yellow. by the time you bring yellow to maximum value you've most likely clipped the red sensels without knowing it. Lexa on Rawdigger just happened to write about this two days ago, so this isn't just me talking about this. The problem is that if you look at the red channel histogram in the camera or normal Raw converter you don't know the red sensels clipped because the histogram is looking at the processed yellow image which has no clipping.

So, what about Olympus and Panasonic? Instead of three sensels with varying saturation points, you have four that are part of the conversion matrix. (some algorithms use just three and those ones cause artifacts with 4-color arrays).

There are two topics of discussion here: One is specific to Olympus/Panasonic sensors and the other has to do with derived colors. The two topics merge in regards to how no two types of cameras are the same.

Ken
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AFairley

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2012, 02:15:24 pm »


Consider what happens with the color yellow. by the time you bring yellow to maximum value you've most likely clipped the red sensels without knowing it. Lexa on Rawdigger just happened to write about this two days ago, so this isn't just me talking about this. The problem is that if you look at the red channel histogram in the camera or normal Raw converter you don't know the red sensels clipped because the histogram is looking at the processed yellow image which has no clipping.


I don't get this statement. There is no yellow channel, a yellow image is just R + G + B, so how can you have a yellow image that has "no clipping" while one of the underlying channels of which it is composed is clipping.  Unless you are looking at a composite blinkie that only shows clipping when all three channels have clipped.  Just asking.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 04:47:08 pm »

I don't get this statement. There is no yellow channel, a yellow image is just R + G + B, so how can you have a yellow image that has "no clipping" while one of the underlying channels of which it is composed is clipping.

he is talking about in-camera JPG image/review histogram that you can see during the image review using camera's LCD... you can have no indication that one raw channel is clipped there while true raw histogram will show that it is already clipped... that's why people learn how the camera meters (spot metering) and how much of headroom you have for all/each channels under a particular light AND/OR using UniWB and learning how particular camera displays histogram (even w/ UniWB it is still not 100% = raw histogram)

« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 06:02:10 pm by deejjjaaaa »
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AFairley

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 05:22:18 pm »

he is talking about in-camera JPG image/review histogram that you can see during the image review using camera's LCD... you can have no indication that one raw channel is clipped there while true raw histogram will shot that it is already clipped... that's why people learn how the camera meters (spot metering) and how much of headroom you have for all/each channels under a particular light AND/OR using UniWB and learning how particular camera displays histogram (even w/ UniWB it is still not 100% = raw histogram)

Got it.  My camera does show separate RGB histograms on review -- but they are so small I wouldn't rely on them to tell me if there's any clipping.
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image66

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 05:27:31 pm »

Thank you, DJ.

In the thread this started in, the OP was lamenting not being able to squeek the histogram closer than 1/3 stop resolution to the top. I was responding to that and then opened up the wrath of Jeremy because I happened to reference a camera that might cause you to give yourself a little more margin. Looking back, I wish I would have just gone along with the masses and agreed with how horrible it is that we can't get closer than a 1/3 stop.

At least I didn't reference non-linear tone curves.  ;D

Ken
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 06:01:29 pm »

Got it.  My camera does show separate RGB histograms on review -- but they are so small I wouldn't rely on them to tell me if there's any clipping.
they actually can - if you set UniWB, do not change JPG settings afterwards, and then study how firmware displays histogram... then you can be sure about raw channel clipping w/ 1/3 stop precision based on review histogram
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 06:06:17 pm »

The issue with these sensors is not so much that the green sensels G1 and G2 behave differently, but the fact that the RAW saturation doesn't happen at a single clipped value as in most cameras, but over a gaussian range of values (Olympus E-P1 image):


Image with clipped highlights (white houses).


RAW histogram showing clipped highlights.

The hills in the end are clipped sensels (there is no information there, just some form of highlights gaussian noise), so it's difficult to set a 'clipping point' since there is no precise point. The problem is solved by setting a clipping point before the party begins (3584 works well in this image).

Anyway I don't consider this any issue to perform ETTR on Olympus/Panasonic sensors, as long as they are cleverly processed in the RAW developer.

Regards
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 06:59:35 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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AFairley

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 06:50:19 pm »

they actually can - if you set UniWB, do not change JPG settings afterwards, and then study how firmware displays histogram... then you can be sure about raw channel clipping w/ 1/3 stop precision based on review histogram

No, I mean they're so small physically, I can't tell what's really up against the right side instead of just close.  Aging eyes, ya know.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 06:52:02 pm »

The issue with these sensors is not so much that the green sensels G1 and G2 behave differently, but the fact that the RAW saturation doesn't happen at a single clipped value as in most cameras, but over a gaussian range of values

is that how Olympus behaves ? because Panasonic does not seem to do so at least in GH2
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: ETTR and Olympus/Panasonic
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 06:58:05 pm »

The E-P1 has the same Panasonic sensor used in all PENs (at least until O-MD). I think all of them behave like this.

deejjjaaaa

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« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 07:35:18 pm by deejjjaaaa »
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