Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: First MFDB  (Read 17306 times)

FredrickFjeldsbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 09:56:40 am »

Yes, I mean the ALPA. Sorry about that.

That seems to be a little out of my budget. I have a budget of 15200, where the back alone will set me back 12071€. Are there any cheaper alternatives for the camera it self? I do want quality optics. I only shoot landscape, so the camera will just be sitting on top of my tripod. The ergonomics is therefore not an issue, nor is weight. The only issue is price. I do not want to cut corners on the lens. Again, thank you Torger. You have been of great assistance.
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 09:58:31 am »

Will I need an adaptar in order for the Schneider to fit the Alpha?

You can look for a used TC...

You can buy a SK 47 Digitar from Alpa, in which case it cost $$, or you can buy a used or new SK 47 Digitar and ask Alpa to mount it, in which case it will cost approx. 1,500 usd to get it mounted in Alpa lens cone with helical focus. In such case it should be coordinated with your Alpa dealer, or Alpa direct, and it will be shipped to Alpa but by them is sent to Schneider for mount/calibration per what I am told. Do verify with Alpa or your dealer. Alpa is the only fabricator that have their large format lenses go back to Schneider and Rodenstock for the most perfect assembly/calibration.

Will TC with Leaf back result in sharp images? Yes. I bet sharper than you are used to. Any Leaf back will beat Canon 5DII or any DSLR hands down in image quality at low ISO. I am of impression that the large format digital lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock (in general) are much sharper than Nikon or Canon (though there are exceptions). The SK 47mm Digitar is reputed to be SHARP. Do note that you will need to shoot with a plexi to remove lens cast, but that with a Leaf back and latest GUI you can easily store/set those to be automatically applied (thus shoot one time with plexi for a certain aperture and store it on your CF card)!!! Please make a search or message Yaya (Yair Shahir).

I am interested in Alpa myself because I believe in their system having the best tolerances available and that their system is based on such tolerances. The Arca mentioned has a different methodology. Rather than the system being to the very tight tolerances it appears that a helical focus is used to apply "fudge" factors when a lens is out of tolerance. That requires you to translate a distance measure to the numbers on the helical focus per a table...

I use Capture One to process my files and much recommend it over any other software. Leaf has been involved in the profiles for Leaf backs in Capture One.

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 10:01:35 am by Anders_HK »
Logged

theguywitha645d

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 970
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 10:23:38 am »

You can also look at the Horseman SW-D or SW-DII.
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 10:39:04 am »

Concerning general MFDB image quality. Be sure to look at raw files yourself so you know what to expect, we all evaluate image quality aspects a bit differently. It is easy to beat the noisy 5Dmark2. It is tougher when comparing to Nikon D3x, or the upcoming Nikon D800, but that system does not have the TS-E 24mm II. I've looked at some files, and from my point of view I think the MFDB superiority is often much exaggerated. The big gain with MF as I see it is that you get larger sensor area so you can get higher resolution images, and you can have tech/view cameras.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 10:44:27 am by torger »
Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 11:00:51 am »

Concerning general MFDB image quality. Be sure to look at raw files yourself so you know what to expect, we all evaluate image quality aspects a bit differently.

+1 and this is very important, to demo and to test drive files, and files from real photo shoots and not only test shoots.

DSLR quality is in my opinion overly raved of. I have not seen any pictures from DSLRs including D3X or new D800/E that impress me to point of medium format files. The sample images of D800/E are not very good, apart from that there are more DSLR pixels, the image quality even of ZD was capable of better, in good light. That is important, medium format needs light, but newer sensors render shadow areas absolutely lovely and with very very much to recapture if the image is not exposed correct, or if you will from shadow areas. What do you like and your available funds, that is individual. In the end it is preferences and choices, it is merely tools. However, if you choose wisely it can be a tool to last you through many upgrade cycles. I am an advanced amateur and figure the AFi-II 12 will last me at least six years... bye bye upgrades to newer to be released next year or the one after... I am content.  ;)...

This is the best photographic forum on the internet, and I'm happy to post here. I will post here even if I don't buy a DMF. The information and resources here are great!

Be cautious, this forum is way too focused on gear, and on latest gear by "? ? ?" being raved to be far greater than any other. Use sound mind and a cautious eye, photography is what matters, the tool (camera/back) is mere a tool to capture your images. Albeit you should choose wise what you will feel content with. It might be a Leaf, Phase One, or even a DSLR.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:07:47 am by Anders_HK »
Logged

Gigi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 549
    • some work
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #25 on: February 29, 2012, 11:52:44 am »

If you are shooting from a tripod, and landscapes, then consider the older 22 mp "fat pixel" backs. They have great rendition and surprisingly high quality. The rush to the newest and latest isn't necessary. The overall quality path in MFDB, from lens, shutter (leaf = less vibration,no mirror) to sensor (bigger, better cooling) all translates to better and more flexibly files and richer tonality.

FWIW, there is something in the DSLR look that just continues to look flat to these eyes. At first glance, it seems wonderful, but then it just seems to lose its allure. MFDB doesn't.
Logged
Geoff

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #26 on: February 29, 2012, 09:27:23 pm »

Be cautious, this forum is way too focused on gear, and on latest gear by "? ? ?" being raved to be far greater than any other. Use sound mind and a cautious eye, photography is what matters, the tool (camera/back) is mere a tool to capture your images. Albeit you should choose wise what you will feel content with. It might be a Leaf, Phase One, or even a DSLR.

The value delivered by the latest is often not only about more/better pixels.

I believe that the usability gain of a IQ160 compared to a P65+ is huge for example. Usability oftentimes brings much more benefits to actual image quality (like in "artistic quality") than pixels.

Cheers,
Bernard

Steve Hendrix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1662
    • http://www.captureintegration.com/
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 10:58:42 pm »

Fredrick -

For what you're contemplating, it is essential to get information that is accurate. While this can be difficult because anecdotal feedback from users can be highly subjective, nonetheless the feedback is valuable, especially if you are able to confirm for yourself what can be confirmed.

Find someone who is trustworthy....and someone you can trust (not always the same thing). Verify as much as possible, opinions and results.

Perhaps you don't have access to actual demo gear for the products you're considering (I'm hoping that there is an accessible and good dealer for you to actually do this). In the event you do not, you might want to reach out and see if someone can provide you with sample files of subject matter you might typically shoot that is captured with all the products you're considering and at the same time. It is difficult to get a real handle on comparative image quality from manufacturer sample files.

I will say that there is no question Leaf is absolutely a consideration as well as Phase One. But I also feel that the P30+ might be a non-starter for you in the event you'll be utilizing movement-based solution (tilt/shift lenses/bodies, etc). The P30+ is not ideal for this type of photography (well documented).

You should consider an Aptus 22 or 28 or perhaps a pre-owned Phase One P25+/45+ (or even P45 non Plus possibly). The biggest advantage to you for Phase One might be the longer exposure capabilities of the 3 products I mentioned (not all Phase One products excel at long exposure). The Leaf products offer excellent image quality if used within their capabilities (shorter exposure durations, as one example).

You will potentially have a decision to make regarding larger sensor size or higher megapixel. For example, the Leaf Aptus-II 28 (also known as Aptus-II 6) is a 28MP, 44mm x 33mm sensor with a starting ISO of 50. The Aptus-II 22 (also known as Aptus-II 5) is a 22MP, 48mm x 36mm sensor with a starting ISO of 25. In the USA, they sell for the same price ($7,990). So you have an interesting choice to consider with those 2 products, for example. This brings up questions - does the 6 additional megapixels of the Aptus-II 28 really make that much of a difference (not significantly, IMO, but YMMV). Will you value the larger sensor more? For landscape, the answer is often yes. However, the starting ISO of 50 for the Aptus-II 28 may be preferable to the ISO 25 of the Aptus-II 22, the Aptus-II 28 is also a newer generation sensor, etc, etc. There are some real considerations you'll need to wade through, and that is why you really need to be careful on the information you receive and accept. Do not pay any heed to the Brian Hirschfeld Aptus-II 10 review, he is, unfortunately, severely mis-informed about the product.

Based on your budget, I really don't see any reason why you cannot put together a good technical camera outfit with a decent digital back like a new Leaf Aptus-II 22/28 or Phase One pre-owned P25+/45 (or perhaps even P45+ on a stretch). The Schneider 47mm would be a good performing, reasonably priced lens to start with. You could pair it with a Cambo Wide to enable shifting for wider views if you really were intent on the direction of a tilt-shift medium format system.

In the conditions you listed (extreme cold), your biggest challenge is mostly going to be sustaining battery power. Batteries, lots and lots of batteries, as well protected as possible from the cold.

Best of luck to you. These are all really good products that can deliver excellent results, but they're expensive, and it really sucks if you don't get the most or best you can for all the money that you'll be spending. As much as we may not wish to admit it, it's often those seemingly little intangible things that give you that nagging burn after you've bought. The details matter.


Steve Hendrix

Logged
Steve Hendrix • 404-543-8475 www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Alpa | Cambo | Sinar | Arca Swiss

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2012, 02:04:47 am »

The value delivered by the latest is often not only about more/better pixels.

I believe that the usability gain of a IQ160 compared to a P65+ is huge for example. Usability oftentimes brings much more benefits to actual image quality (like in "artistic quality") than pixels.

...and that is where 135 DSLRs excel. So if going for medium format one must try to figure out if it is usable enough, because it's going to be worse. MFDB not having a live view usable for focusing in the field is a *huge* disadvantage. So then we need sliding backs on a tech camera? Arrrgggh! And there's more. Lens color cast? Arrgghh! And you won't be shooting any wildlife snaps in-between carefully composed landscape frames.

But depending on your personality - your workflow - it may be survivable. I think it is ok for me for example. In some way, having a more limited equipment makes me less stressed and more focused on the images I actually can shoot with it. But the usability superiority of modern 135 DSLRs is undeniable.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 02:06:59 am by torger »
Logged

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1254
    • http://yayapro.com
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2012, 03:28:29 am »

Following Steve's suggestions (I agree with all of them) I think it is worth checking out Dan Lindberg's recent story on our website: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/news_0212_dl.asp

I think Dan's work is incredible and his images are a testament to his ability to utilise a relatively low-budget setup to the maximum

Regarding batteries in the cold; We can supply a simple DC-Firewire adapter that allows you to use an external battery (such as Quantum Turbo) stuck in your inside pocket which will last for hours if not days

Good luck!

Yair
Logged
Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One - Cultural Heritage
e: ysh@phaseone.com |

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2012, 08:56:04 am »

Second hand backs can be a good way to get into MF. I think a 22 megapixel back is okay. I just missed a Phase One P25 which was sold for €2800 on ebay today. P25 is one of the oldest (the oldest?) 22 megapixel back which has a CF card and can actually be used untethered, so it should be perfectly usable in the field. I was thinking that I might survive with a tethered back and carry laptop and batteries, but when a P25 is sold now and then at these prices the tethered backs are now pretty much uninteresting to me.

22 megapixel back from 2004 will give you good images, better pixel quality than the 5D mark II. But it will not feel 100% great if you moved to MF for resolution, now when even DSLRs are exceeding that. However, it gives you a much lower investment cost on the back so you can get good camera and lenses, and then in two years or so get a good deal on a second hand P45 for example.
Logged

FredrickFjeldsbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2012, 09:38:58 am »

Thank you all for very good responses. I have been thinking a great deal. I know my back will be a Leaf, but which one I am not yet sure of. Is it possible to use liveview with the Alpa 12 TC? I do appreciate focusing using liveview, but it is not essential. I need rich tonality and good colour depth for my landscape images. I also want a little higher resolution than I have now. But then again, I want big pixels spread over a big sensor. There is much to consider, but atleast I know which lens and which camera I will buy.
Logged

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1254
    • http://yayapro.com
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2012, 01:33:43 pm »

Fredrick I suggest that you get in touch with Christian at Studio Import and ask him to try the Leaf backs (say a II 7 & a II 8 or a 6) to get an idea of the differences in sensor size and relation to lens focal length etc.

http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/fale_norway.asp
Logged
Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One - Cultural Heritage
e: ysh@phaseone.com |

sbernthal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 217
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2012, 10:43:54 am »

I will most likely be going for the Leaf Aptus-II 6, (if I can find an Aptus-II 8 for the same price, I will buy the 8)

There is a big difference between Aptus II 6 and Aptus II 8, so get the 8 if you can.

As far as operating temperatures, they are rated 0c-40c.
I've never tried 0c, but in 40c they do stop working.

Logged

Anders_HK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
    • andersloof.com
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2012, 12:01:05 pm »

...I think it is worth checking out Dan Lindberg's recent story on our website: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/news_0212_dl.asp

Yair, great article of great work!


There is a big difference between Aptus II 6 and Aptus II 8, so get the 8 if you can.

Frederick,

It might at first seem like a budget choice but also the 20MP Leaf is capable of stellar image quality used at low ISO (as should all backs be at low ISO). The difference between the different Leaf backs is the number of pixels, and a wider dynamic range for newer backs. This is worthwhile testing yourself, and is pending on your desire for photographic high dynamic scenes or not. With the 80MP Leaf colors are more exact, more colors or finer gradation of colors, all of which makes also processing a tad simpler per my experience. The 40MP should be somewhere between it and the 28MP Leaf, the 28 a slight improvement in ISO than the 20MP.

No image from the Arctic from me but well from neighboring Sweden near Goteborg area; a cold early winter morning after a fresh heavy snowfall. Shot with Aptus 65 using Mamiya AFDIII and 55-110mm AF on tripod set in around 2 feet of snow. That lens is not even sharpest in Mamiya lineup. I would expect a SK 47 Digitar to be super sharp in comparison. That should not be discredited when considering also the 20MP backs, since sharp will get you high quality images. The question is how large you want to be able to print which may decide your pixels.

Regarding lenses, my own interest is in the STC not only due to panorama flat stitching, but because it will add shift/fall/rise and therefore one lens will make essentially three lenses, pending on single shot, panoramic or stitching two images with the width of sensor side by side. Thus that brings three focals from one lens, and the STC might be cheaper than buying a second lens for a TC. It would also enable more possibilities with lens movements and stitching, and avoid carry gear and changing lens in field. Will of course also give nearly twice the number of pixels...

Lastly, dont be pressured but consider careful since it do involve some investment. While others here use digital back or sell them, for some the preference is DSLR. It is personal choice.


Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 12:04:49 pm by Anders_HK »
Logged

Aryan Aqajani

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2012, 08:43:58 am »

I am not an expert but a Mamiya DM22/Leaf Aptus-II user. Just wanted to let you guys know although I don't live in a cold country like Norway, my back has experienced sever weather up to 39C under Australian sun, no issue whatsoever. It is not a self-promotion but you can see my portrait photos done on DB on my website. URL is on my profile here.

Thanks Leaf :)
Logged
Aryan Aqajani - Photographer in Melbourne, Australia
Website | Blog | Facebook

Pics2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 198
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2012, 09:12:42 am »

I am not an expert but a Mamiya DM22/Leaf Aptus-II user. Just wanted to let you guys know although I don't live in a cold country like Norway, my back has experienced sever weather up to 39C under Australian sun, no issue whatsoever. It is not a self-promotion but you can see my portrait photos done on DB on my website. URL is on my profile here.

Thanks Leaf :)
Great style you have! Very nice pictures.
Logged

FredrickFjeldsbo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2012, 08:18:01 am »

I am at loss. I have the opportunity to buy a leaf aptus 22 at relatively low cost, but the back is 7 years old. I would par it with a Cambo WRS 1000 and a Schneider 47mm. My rational mind does however tell me to get the Nikon D800E, which would be cheaper and offer larger resolution and a rumored higher dynamic range. What to do? I have no idea.
Logged

itsskin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 83
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2012, 08:45:22 am »

I just got Aptus 22 over ZD and it's amazing back. Nikon will not give you the picture feeling you are getting from MFD. And I really doubt the rumor about Nikon's superior DR range.
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: First MFDB
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2012, 10:39:07 am »

I am at loss. I have the opportunity to buy a leaf aptus 22 at relatively low cost, but the back is 7 years old. I would par it with a Cambo WRS 1000 and a Schneider 47mm. My rational mind does however tell me to get the Nikon D800E, which would be cheaper and offer larger resolution and a rumored higher dynamic range. What to do? I have no idea.

The move to medium format I think should be motivated by the camera and the lenses, not the sensor. At least for us that cannot afford the latest and greatest.

Compared to a modern DSLR like the D800E an MFDB will feel very unflexible. MFDB's sensors supposed superiority is generally based on old comparisons or with Canon sensors which never has excelled in dynamic range. With that said, an old 22 megapixel MFDB sensor will still outperform a Canon 5D mark II in dynamic range at base ISO, so the image quality is definitely not bad. You cannot do long exposures or high ISO though.

The disadvantage of the D800E is lens choice, there's no tilt-shift lens at 35mm for example (would match the 47 in FOV), and the 36 megapixels will stress the lens resolving power, so you will wost likely get more sharpness drop in corners than for your tech camera system. Also, say in 2 - 4 years when you want a resolution upgrade, you can probably get a second hand ~40 megapixel MFDB at a decent price, while the D800 is at the end of the road, there are no lenses that can match.

I'm in a similar situation as you, I have already purchased a tech camera system, but have not yet chosen back. The reason I went for MF was not the backs, it was the camera and lenses. I just roughly made sure that those old backs are "good enough" before I made the jump, I don't expect superiority compared to the D800E sensor in the first back I get. I do expect better corner sharpness though :-)

That is if you get the back to be able to use the camera/lens system you like rather than the other way around I think you will be happy.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 11:20:25 am by torger »
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up