First MFDB

[FredrickFjeldsbo]

Hi.

I am considering buying a medium format digital camera. I primarly shoot landscape, so that's what the camera is going to be used for. I have been looking at the Leaf Aptus-II 6 Mamiya 645DF and the PhaseOne P30+ 645DF. I am not very knowledgable when it comes to wheter these camera bodies are good or bad. I will be living in the artic for nine months (Lofoten, Norway). I need something that can handle the cold weather. I am also in doubt to which lenses to get. I have been looking at both the Phase One and Mamiya lenses, but only one of them seems to have Tilt/Shift. I am enjoying the Canon 24mm TS-E MkII now, and it is a spectacular lens. Is there any medium format equiliant? As I sad, I'm pretty new to medium format.

Thanks in Advance

[torger]

Seems to be in a similar situation as I am. I currently have my eyes on Linhof Techno with Schneider Digitar lenses, then you can have movements (tilt/shift) on all your focal lengths, have a true view camera workflow. But I would think a SLR type of camera is less of a risk and more portable. I haven't yet come to the "portability" and "hard weather" analysis, I think the Techno will work for my needs but it will be a compromise compared to weather-sealed 35mm digital.

Phase One does test their products in tough conditions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytrsdSR_67Q but I would doubt that they see as much field tests like weather-sealed pro Canon and Nikon lenses and bodies do. It is also notable that the tests in that video did not include rain.

The Hasselblad system has a teleconverter type of tilt-shift adapter in their lens lineup by the way.

Most of the "hardcore" hiking type of landscape photographers I know about use 35mm digital. So if it is really tough conditions, I think that is the way to go.

[FredrickFjeldsbo]

Thank you for your reply Torger.

I have looked at the hasselblad system, but it is proprietary. I would like to have some flexibility to which lenses and technical cameras I can use. (If I choose the technical road).

I will not be shooting much in rain anyway, but the other testing looked very promising. I still need some more time to think about this, as it is a huge investment.

[FredrickFjeldsbo]

After some thought and looking I have come up with this combo: Leaf AptusII-8/PhaseOne p-30+ (depends on economy), Alpha 12 TC and Schneider Digitar 28/2.8 Copal. Is this set up any good or am I missing by miles?

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I would strongly recommend the PhaseOne over the leaf. You can read about them on my website http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2011/12/07/leaf-aptus-ii-10-on-phaseone-645df/ of course I own a PhaseOne, and like anyone who owns anything is consequently bias, but I found the PhaseOne cameras to be built significantly better. Especially if you are planning to use it outside, I would say Phase, simply because they body is significantly better sealed, and tempered to survive much more difficult conditions (which their stress test series of videos on their youtube channel, they are quite entertaining and informative http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFnQVnMY3Co&list=PLEBC3C8680159D13F&index=39&feature=plpp_video among others). The fact that PhaseOne has released these videos, and Leaf hasn't is certainly a commentary on the quality. Also they Leaf has a few visible disadvantages for outdoor use in extreme conditions. First, the back has air slats, where the fan is exposed to the elements which is used to cool the camera down. PhaseOne does not have this on any of their backs. Second, the battery is stored externally on the bottom of the digital back (a fact which is conveniently neglected in almost all product photos of their backs) which means it too is exposed to the elements and more importantly so are its contacts to the camera. On the P series, the battery goes on the side of the camera, and is better protected. On the IQ series, it is fully integrated with a hatch to the bottom of the camera. Both of these solutions are certainly better protected and less obtrusive then leaf's arcane system.

Lens wise, the only current production tilt shift lens endorsed by PhaseOne is the SK version which is seen on the PhaseOne website. It is an absolutely stunning lens, which is well built and preforms beautifully (it will work on the PhaseOne 645DF which takes both the Leaf and PhaseOne backs). Mamiya made a manual focus lens, which I believe was either a 50 or 55mm lens which was a tilt shift. (somewhere on the forum there is a sample image taken with this lens and a Leaf back) and after some research I found this lens is highly regarded. On the main LuLa website, there is a review of the Hartblei Superrotator, which I believe comes in a few different focal lengths for medium format. Also another solution from Hartblei includes, a mamiya RB/RZ adapter which allows you to have access to a 75mm tilt shift, as well as the tilt shift adapter that Mamiya makes for all of their RB/RZ lenses. All that said, if  tilt and shift really matters to you, maybe buying a back and either a plate camera like an Arca, Alpa or Cambo, or a semi-tech camera like the Linhof Techno or Sinar F would be an option, or just getting a sliding back for a 4x5 camera of your choice may give you better control.

[Audii-Dudii]

Mamiya made a manual focus lens, which I believe was either a 50 or 55mm lens which was a tilt shift. (somewhere on the forum there is a sample image taken with this lens and a Leaf back) and after some research I found this lens is highly regarded.

The lens you're referring to is 50mm/f4 and it has shift movements only, no tilt.  That said, it is an impressive performer and I am happily using a modified one on my Contax 645 body via a MAM-1 adapter.

[Gigi]

The fact that PhaseOne has released these videos, and Leaf hasn't is certainly a commentary on the quality.

With all due respect, the absence of a video does not imply anything. What you may infer is your choice, but one does not follow from the other. (re:McCarthyism)

[theguywitha645d]

Wow, Brian, you really have your knives into Leaf. Phase One is really not that great either--the four button menu system is really plodding, the monitor is poor, and the Mamiya bodies are hardly cutting edge. If the OP was not looking to go to a tech camera, I would recommend a modern MFD camera like the Pentax 645D.

[BernardLanguillier]

I need something that can handle the cold weather.

It is next to impossible to access clear and reliable data about how many frames can be shot on a battery charge with either of those backs at -20 or -30C.

If I were you I would demand to spend 30 minutes in a fridge a -25C with the camera and measure yourself the battery life before buying. I am not joking here.

The only MF body designed from the ground up for those conditions is the 645D.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Anders_HK]

Hi.

I am considering buying a medium format digital camera. I primarly shoot landscape, so that's what the camera is going to be used for. I have been looking at the Leaf Aptus-II 6 Mamiya 645DF and the PhaseOne P30+ 645DF. I am not very knowledgable when it comes to wheter these camera bodies are good or bad. I will be living in the artic for nine months (Lofoten, Norway). I need something that can handle the cold weather. I am also in doubt to which lenses to get. I have been looking at both the Phase One and Mamiya lenses, but only one of them seems to have Tilt/Shift. I am enjoying the Canon 24mm TS-E MkII now, and it is a spectacular lens. Is there any medium format equiliant? As I sad, I'm pretty new to medium format.

Thanks in Advance

My prior Leaf was Aptus 65, which is same as Aptus-II 6 (except for better screen and some more, sensor is same). That back and sensor is stellar. The sensor is of newer design than the one in P30+. I looked at both at the time and much preferred the image quality from the Leaf. The P30+ also have micro lenses which makes it not possible to use it with tilt, shift.

For use in cold weather you will benefit of a simple mechanical camera, thus e.g. an Alpa TC. Do you need many lenses? I am interested in the Alpa STC myself and plan on getting only ONE lens: SK 47mm Digitar.

I current use AFi-II 12 (same as Aptus-II 12 but newer back design with tilt display and rotating sensor) on Rolleiflex Hy6. That does not fit on a Mamiya camera of course. In comparison I found the Mamiya system clunky and not as good as far as lenses, and awkward to hold. With Mamiya you will find connection problems from time to time during which you will need to remove batteries and back and put it back again (I prior had Mamiya AFD and AFDIII). With Hy6 I have not had a single problem, apart from when battery is low that the mirror can lock up. Thus if you would like, you could start with a TC with an AFi back and later add a Hy6 if you like. It is superb for portraits and more. I am not sure if the 28MP is available as AFi back, but the 33MP was made as such.

Alpa has stated that they will come out with a tilt adapter for wide lenses, thus hopefully for something like the SK 47.

As far as image quality, the TC will beat the other that you consider hands down, it will be sharper and more large format like in character. It will also be much less weight for you to carry. Thus the choice seems simple. It will of course require all manual use. While the Pentax is said to have weather sealing etc, has anyone actually tested it for harsh climate? Will the sealing effective function to keep weather out, or perhaps also to keep it from being weathered out?

I recommend the simple system; Alpa + Leaf or Phase One back. If Aptus-II 6 or P30+, very certainly the Leaf. If as most of us you take reasonable care of your gear and do not let elephants step on it etc, the Leaf should function stellar to you, as should also the Phase One.

Best regards,
Anders

P.S. Leaf has the largest display in the business and their back current back design go back around ten years, for a reason: it works flawless (if any problem your agent will help, try that with a Pentax). My Aptus 65 dropped on hardwood floor one time, bounced numerous times like a ball. Apparent it landed on the battery (crash cushion?) which broke. The back worked flawless since the incidence...

[torger]

After some thought and looking I have come up with this combo: Leaf AptusII-8/PhaseOne p-30+ (depends on economy), Alpha 12 TC and Schneider Digitar 28/2.8 Copal. Is this set up any good or am I missing by miles?

If you are considering ALPA, I'd suggest that you also look at Arca-Swiss RM3Di. The problem with these systems is that you get to pay *a lot* extra for lenses compared if you have lens board mount as on the Techno for example. For the RM3Di it costs about €1000 extra per lens, with ALPA more. The RM3Di has the focus ring and tilt built into the body so it becomes a little bit more flexible, and not as expensive lenses, but still expensive.

For economy I'd also consider if you really need ultra-wides for your photography. If you can have the 35mm as the widest to start with it becomes a lot cheaper. With a 48x36mm sensor that corresponds to 25.2mm on the full-frame 135 which is ok wide-angle I think, but with 44x33mm as the P30+ which is a little smaller maybe 35mm becomes too narrow. Therefore I'd also look into starting off with a second hand P25+ and later aim for a P45+. I know it kind of sucks only having 22 megapixels on medium format these days, but to me 48x36mm is a nicer size than 44x33mm of the P30+.

[Anders_HK]

I would strongly recommend the PhaseOne over the leaf. You can read about them on my website http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2011/12/07/leaf-aptus-ii-10-on-phaseone-645df/ of course I own a PhaseOne, and like anyone who owns anything is consequently bias, but I found the PhaseOne cameras to be built significantly better.

Brian, indeed seems biased but also a very odd review pertaining to Leaf and seeming with a steep misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of the systems. I doubt that you given suffice time to fully understand the Leaf. When you initially state "comparable PhaseOne P65+" in regards to Aptus-II 10 I believe this shows precisely so. Not only that, but the P65+ has a better sensor that seems to place it between Aptus-II 10 and Aptus-II 12/IQ180 in image quality. Actually I found the Aptus-II 10 to be only slight improvement in image quality over Aptus-II 6 & 7 per my personal review when deciding to upgrade my prior Leaf. It is not only about having about same number of pixels but about sensor design and more. You go on to state that "I think that PhaseOne 645AFD (and the Mamiya) are the best built 645 camera bodies on the planet." That is something that most would tend to not agree upon, since these are originally old designs that are very clunky and not comfortable to hold. It is said that the DF body is better, because better AF etc, but... that is being marketed while Phase One / Mamiya redesign to get a proper camera built from scratch. It appears that the best medium format body current is the Hy6, which regrettably had an old business problem... but seems most would who have handled it seem to agree it is by far the best. And yes, I am biased, but I also owned Mamiya AFD, AFDIII prior to it, and no way I wish to return to Mamiya due to many problems with the 645 system! In comparison to my Rolleiflex, the Mamiy is frank horrible. The Hy6 have made me enjoy photography again, rather than fighting the gear. And yes, I used Mamiya 645 system during nearly five years! Not to mention the lenses... I had many Mamiya including two D lenses. I would recommend large format digital lenses any day, there is no comparison, except for some of the Rollei that are said to be about a sharp...

If you research you will find that actual users of Leaf seem to be without complaints and seemingly agree that the backs are stellar. Except for the few that are initially are misunderstanding them when learning them, and are quick put in right direction and with support by e.g. Phase One Product Manager Yair Shahir who is present in these forums. No other brand offers that level of quick support, including Phase One (although some of their USA agents are present on LuLa). The Phase One backs have long been complained for having a very poor tiny display that does not even show the histogram with much information. While the display on Leaf remains the largest in the business it has never been claimed to be a touch screen interface like you assumed it to be in your write up. Rather it is a tool that works excellent. Some complained of the older Aptus series screens that they could not view it in bright sunlight. Well... that is not what it is for, but the Aptus-II backs have a display that is improved, however already the Aptus display and its usefulness for accurate histogram information and associated features beat Phase One interface hands down, which is something any potential buyer should take a look at. All Aptus II backs also have or can be upgraded to get the new GUI, no cost. Phase One stays same... old interface, poor histogram.

Thus seems that rather than be barking at and publishing something that shows that you have barely made yourself familiar with, you may wish to accurate test it further prior doing so, or simply not write at all of it. It would be better for your credibility, which per the write up on Aptus-II 10 seems very dubvious to be frank, since it seems to go against basically all Leaf users who witness of the durability and very high image quality of Leaf. I encourage anyone to make a search here on LuLa and/or fourm.getdpi.com.

As far as biased, I use Leaf but would without a doubt also recommendPhase One for someone. The like of the interface and character of the files is a mere preference. As implied in above, if for the same price being able to get P65+ or Aptus-II 10, based on image quality I would recommend P65+. Likewise, because of sensor I recommend Aptus-II 6 over P30+. As for the interface and display, I am of view that the Leaf is superior to non IQ backs when it comes to useful info from the display and user interface --- however I state that is mere based on my preference, though I encourage to compare the displays and the histogram information. Leaf has plenty of information related to histogram, please download a user guide. The IQ backs are more iPhone like, but... is it useful? And... and suffice to justify the very steep added $$$price?

Leaf is solid 500%, and not at all as your article imply. Your article is plain WRONG and MISLEADING. I know I can trust Leaf which others feel they can do with Phase One. That is ok. However it is also about support. Now that is one thing that can vary in different regions. In Hong Kong the Leaf agent gives me 500% support also per an international phone call when I am outside Hong Kong and also on a Sunday!!! Also when outside of warranty. That is also one reason why I upgraded to the 80MP Leaf. I cannot say that of the Phase One agent in Hong Kong, who was frank one reason to why I picked Leaf in first place...

Best regards,
Anders

[torger]

But anyway, do Leaf actually do weather testing?

Fans and open air vents (if the backs have that, I don't know) is not something that I'd like to have out in the nature...

For landscape photographers out in tough conditions a sturdy product is probably more important than swift customer support.

[Anders_HK]

Actually first place I went with my Aptus 65 was to dusty India... at one place it was with my gear in my Tenba backpack at bottom rear trunk on an old crummy bus... the pack smelled strong of diesel for months... No issues. And yes, I do travel much and also to remote locations, and I shoot landscapes and people living simple lives in remote locations when I get a chance. Would trust my Leaf anytime. The vents is a none issue if you do a search online. The only ones who seem to claim contrary are those who have not used Leaf. Lets remember Leaf was developed and is made in Israel... it is tough.

However, if you want to use any camera unprotected in rain storm, then it is perhaps better to use an underwater camera or an underwater housing. How many use a camera in such way? I believe you shoot 4x5, then the Leaf should work same fine as your 4x5, just same proper and reasonable care. Basically if you choose Leaf vs. Phase One based on the vents, you are comparing them based on a none issue.

I would not worry taking my Leaf anywhere on the planet, because the weakness in my photographic chain will end up being myself rather than my back. Housing per what I recall is made of duralumin (aircraft grade aluminum)... very light and tough. It is built for professional use.

I hope above helps.

Best regards,
Anders

[Gigi]

There has been discussions of the vents and fans before - there is an internal division in the back where the sensitive stuff is actually sealed off from the fans. Also the internals are divided into readily servicable parts (like the US) and other parts which have to go back to the mother ship.

FWIW, the piece of this puzzle that is not yet discussed is the rotating sensor. Sure, I'd like the newer IQ focus confirmation software, but would never give up the rotating sensor of the AFI II back. The concept of taking off a back and rotating it leaves the possibility of drops. Clearly some mounts allow for back rotation (great), but having this built into the back is good.

[Pics2]

My prior Leaf was Aptus 65, which is same as Aptus-II 6 (except for better screen and some more, sensor is same). That back and sensor is stellar. The sensor is of newer design than the one in P30+. I looked at both at the time and much preferred the image quality from the Leaf. The P30+ also have micro lenses which makes it not possible to use it with tilt, shift.

I'm also still looking for DMF, and every information can help.
Anders, can you please tell me why you find the image quality of Leaf Aptus II 6 better than Phase One 30+. I have some samples of various backs, but no real life experience. Looking at samples from these two backs I liked P30+ more, but I have just few samples.
Thanks!

[Anders_HK]

P30 vs Aptus 65? This is per memory from years back: the Leaf files were more graphic, more photographic in appearance. The P30 files came across as a tad plastic, sort of staring at a light table. To tell the truth I prefer Dalsa sensors, which is what I had in ZD, Aptus 65 and now AFi-II 12. All Leaf backs have sensors made by Dalsa, and also Phase One has switched to Dalsa sensors in 40, 60 and 80 MP backs. Other sensors in Phase One backs are made by Kodak and have a different appearance than the Dalsa sensors. Do forget ZD since the sensor was not properly implemented by Mamiya. However for a budget back do consider a refurbished Aptus 22 which has the identical same sensor as ZD, but properly implemented by Leaf.

Although I assume they cost slight more, two backs that can be put on the table in relation to P30+ and Aptus-II 6 are the P40+ and Aptus-II 8 with the 40MP sensors. Those were introduced at same time as P65+ and may well be same sensor as P65+ but slighter crops of it. That should make them the second newest generation of sensors after the 80MP Dalsa sensors. Do verify this with Leaf and Phase One. What is gained by backs with each newer generation of sensor is a tad better ISO performance. Digital backs should however be shot at low ISO for optimum image quality. Phase One + backs also have pixel binning which is very interesting and can increase ISO performance at cost of a lesser number of pixels file.

Interesting will be what will be next sensors that Leaf and Phase One will release. Neglecting the pixels, the 80MP backs were significant improvements in sheer image quality compared to prior back; more correct colors, more colors with a finer gradation of colors, better DR, and of course the pixels do play a part in this. I remain very very impressed with the AFi-II 12. It is the first back which in image quality has made me drop film complete and that brings me similar level of colors and rendering as film did, only it brings me much further in how I can process it than film ever did. Hopefully next generation of less than 80MP will bring same to table of options, but I really do not know, or of when.

As always it is best to test drive a back, and to gather raw files to explore. Not only from agents, but also from users. Likewise to buy from an agent (even if used) since that brings warranty and support.

Best regards,
Anders

[Pics2]

Thanks!

[FredrickFjeldsbo]

I will most likely be going for the Leaf Aptus-II 6, (if I can find an Aptus-II 8 for the same price, I will buy the the Alpha TC 12 and the Schneider Apo Digitar XL
5.6/47mm Copal 0. Will I need an adaptar in order for the Schneider to fit the Alpha? I am most likely asking the dumbest questions, but I don't want to make a single mistake in this matter. Also, will the combination of the Leaf back and the Schneider lens deliver sharp images? I consider myself to be spoiled with sharpness now, as I have a 5D MkII and a Canon 24mm TS-E MkII. I would very much like it if the combination I choose will deliver shaper images.

Again, thank you all for the great information. This is the best photographic forum on the internet, and I'm happy to post here. I will post here even if I don't buy a DMF. The information and resources here are great!


Fredrick.

[torger]

I will most likely be going for the Leaf Aptus-II 6, (if I can find an Aptus-II 8 for the same price, I will buy the the Alpha TC 12 and the Schneider Apo Digitar XL
5.6/47mm Copal 0. Will I need an adaptar in order for the Schneider to fit the Alpha?

I guess you mean ALPA (without the h), www.alpa.ch

With Alpa you need alpa lens mount, so you will need to buy an Alpa-specific Schneider Apo Digital XL. The good news about this is that the lens mount with helical focusing is calibrated with very high precision so you have an exact distance scale on the lens which can be used for precise focusing if you know the distance to the object you are focusing at (some use laser distance meters, good for architecture but work not so well in landscape). The bad news is that it costs quite a deal of money.

The 47mm digitar costs unmounted €1500 with a copal shutter. If you get it in Alpa mount, it will cost you about €3800. Arca-Swiss R-Line (RM3Di most popular model) works in a similar manner as ALPA, but has a lower cost lens mount mainly through that the helical focusing mechanism is in the body and not in the lens. It also has tilt built into the body unlike ALPA. For Arca-Swiss R-Line this 47mm lens costs about €2500, that is €1000 on top of the base price.

The lowest cost lens mounts are traditional lens boards which you use on cameras that focuses with a bellows, such as Linhof Techno. There are also systems that have helical focusing options that are less expensive than Arca-Swiss and ALPA though, Silvestri Bicam is one, but perhaps there are more. I'm not familiar with all brands out there.