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Author Topic: To Giclee or Not To Giclee  (Read 8048 times)

PatrickAllen

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To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« on: February 16, 2012, 02:21:21 pm »

This is copied from a post I just put on Ken Allen Studios Blog and I wanted to share it with the greater photography community because I still see giclee print services advertised.

…How about not Giclee pronounced (zhee-clay) and instead archival pigment ink print or more simply pigment ink print. Sure they do not roll off the tongue in the same way as the French Giclee does, but it is an honest and transparent way of identifying the process. Any internet search for the word Giclee will tell you that Jack Duganne appropriated the term in 1991 to classify digital prints made on inkjet printers. At the time words like inkjet and digital prints had negative connotations and Mr. Duganne thought that a better word may elevate them to high art and appeal more to gallerists. So he adapted the french word “gicler” meaning “to squirt, spurt, or spray” or as a noun “giclee.” At the time it may have been a good move on Mr. Duganne’s part and I am not going to argue that he was right or wrong, but 21 years later I think it is time to reassess his neologism.

One major problem with his word choice is that “giclee” in french is also slang for male ejaculation, which is enough of a reason to completely remove the word from any kind of photographic printing process and save photographers all over the world from the potential embarrassment. Another reason to move on to using “pigment ink print” (or some variation there of) is that inkjet printing does not have the same negative connotations as it did in 1991. Pigment ink prints are now available with a color gamut and subtlety that surpasses either Iris prints or c-prints while also offering the best lightfastness and overall archival stability. Museums and fine art galleries do not label these prints as giclees but as inkjet prints or pigment ink prints because they accept the digital technology and are not ashamed to make it transparent. We no longer need an inappropriate neologism of a french word to elevate inkjet printing in the eyes for the art world; It can now stand on its own as a beautiful printing process deserving of a place in the history of photography
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Gemmtech

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 02:59:03 pm »

And in the USA there are "slang" words & phrases for just about everything.... Giclee doesn't mean male ejaculating anymore than (actually less so), Plow her field, spank the monkey, wrestle the python, enter the grotto, butter your muffin, etc. mean anything other than what they mean, but some make it slang.  What should we do, eliminate every word and phrase that some troglodyte has converted to slang use?  I can't offer to butter my girlfriend's muffin anymore when we are eating at the restaurant.?   ???

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digitaldog

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 03:29:07 pm »

I enjoy a good Giclee as much as the next guy <g>. I think it is an utterly stupid term to use for any kind of ink jet print. IOW, it is just a BS marketing term that should go away.
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bill t.

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 03:47:24 pm »

Are you guys talkin' about Fine Art Reproduction Prints?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 04:46:02 pm »

I quit using the term giclee some time ago.  Personally I think it's origin was to distinguish rotary drum printers like the Iris from standard inkjet printers.  Since the 9600 there is no reason for that, and giclee sounds stupid and pretentious, and if you say "giclee" to a client they give you this really weird look on their face, so now you have to explain it ... why bother.  How DO you explain it?  Of course if they're French they'd probably start laughing ...

There is some truth to the fact that using the term "inkjet" is problematic, since most think of inkjet printers as the little $150 thing they have sitting in their office or at home. Pigment ink on fine art paper is the term I've used for some time.  If anyone insists on more clarify I will explain they are special very high end and large inkjetprinters that can use special pigment inks rather than dye for longevity, and they put over 4 million tiny drops of ink per square inch of paper.

I think what's interesting is how many landscape photographers out there still insist on their websites that they use fuji crystal archive which has better color and longevity than "inkjet" and are "real" photographs ... spurning inkjet as though it's some back room cheap process.  Some of them are quite well known.  What's worse are the salespeople in their galleries, who are clueless so they make up stuff based on their interpretation of the words.  Recently I visited a gallery in Maui (not Peter Lik), and the salesman said "The brilliant colors are from pearlized silver crystals in the image", interpreted from the fact the paper was Fuji Crystal Archive Pearl.  He also said they are produced using a special process with resin, so they come out soft and then "harden", obviously trying to interpret the fact that the paper is a Resin Coated paper.  The photographer should be embarrassed by his sales people saying crap like that.
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artobest

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 05:38:58 pm »

I can't offer to butter my girlfriend's muffin anymore when we are eating at the restaurant.?   ???


No.
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PatrickAllen

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 06:00:20 pm »

Thanks for the responses and feedback...It is certainly only my opinion but from the photographers and galleries I have worked with, giclee is not really the accepted or appropriate description anymore and this seems backed up from your responses. Still when I google Pigment Ink Print the top hit is http://www.gicleeprint.net/abtGclee.shtm which to me has misleading and confusing information.
 
Gemmtech: While your slang terms are pretty darn amusing:) I am certainly not suggesting that we eliminate all slang (or you would never butter anybody's muffin) and this is a faulty generalization. Also this is only one point I was trying to make; The other is that it is not a very transparent term. 
digitaldog: Agreed!
Bill: We are referring to pigment ink prints produced with inkjet printers (for ex. the Epson 9900). It is not just for fine art reproductions but for all digital images.
Wayne: Really good points. Thanks for sharing. I have had your same frustrations including the fuji crystal archive "real" photograph issue.

Best,
Patrick
www.KenAllenStudios.com
www.PatrickAllenPhotography.com
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 07:29:42 pm »

From the Innova Art home page, "...Innova Art is a specialist supplier of high quality Photographic and Fine Art substrates for giclée and inkjet printing and a number of innovative and niche applications within the ever increasing digital printing markets."  This this mean that giclée and inkjet are the same or different processes?  (I already know the answer! :D)
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Gemmtech

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 07:42:06 pm »

Why can't they just be photographs?  If it's a reproduction of a painting then call it a reproduction of a painting.  There have been many names used and I do agree there isn't much panache in the term "Inkjet Print" because of the low end of the market, however both Rolls Royce and Chevrolet are cars and I do realize there is somewhat of a difference, we are looking for a sub-category?  We have cars, everybody knows what that is, we have Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Maybach, Ferrari, etc. and then we have Ford, Chevy, Hyundai. We have a "Photograph" (I realize I'm not including all types of prints) now what do we call them?  How about a Pigment Print?  An Art Print?

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 08:11:45 pm by Gemmtech »
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tim wolcott

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 07:57:07 pm »

Well I don't really need to say it again.  But I have been after the inkjet community to lose the Giclee word since we made the first pigment inkjet print in 1994.  It was made on a fine art treated paper.  The main reason is to separate your pigment prints from the dyes based prints regardless how those dyes prints were made. Because if you are in the business of selling your photographs for a living, you don't want the curator, director and end purchaser to think these pigment prints will fade like the ones in lawsuits from dyes based prints.

When Ansel Adams worked with Polaroid to make the Polaroid Permanent Print process aka Pigment prints that set the tone.  The hand writing was on the wall but it took 1.5 million dollars and 11 years later to make the first great pigment print.   

I have been using the word "Pigments Prints".  Pigment prints and printing for photography have been around since about 1888.  Although our technology is much better in color representation and detail.  When we developed Evercolor in 1991-1992, I never liked the name Evercolor, I called them "Evercolor Pigment Prints".  This process was used to help design and develop the Pigment Inkjet Technology.  

I do think it is very very important to establish the market place that Pigment Prints are here to stay and that these prints are Green, they last an amazing amount of time, and have the best color and brilliance in the market place.  This will reassure everyone that there investment and artwork will be here for many generations.

The new form of making inkjet prints with my brand new coating should last in the realm of an Evercolor print around 250-350 years on display.  I will be talking to Henry next week about this.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 07:59:57 pm by tim wolcott »
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Martin Ranger

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 10:11:45 pm »

I enjoy a good Giclee as much as the next guy <g>. I think it is an utterly stupid term to use for any kind of ink jet print. IOW, it is just a BS marketing term that should go away.

+1
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 10:58:34 pm »

Personally, I prefer the term Pigment Ink Prints, however, when speaking to other artists (painters of various kind) they often refer to these as Giclée. In fact, when I was describing my new (at the time) Epson 4900 as a pigment ink printer, they responded by asking if that was the same as Giclée.  So in other words, it depends on who you are talking to.  Some people understand Pigment Ink, others Giclée.  We simply have to understand this ourselves so we use whatever term our client is familiar with to describe our process - no matter what we think of the actual wording.  Salesmanship 101 says talk to your client in language they understand.  It's our job to know what all the words are and use them as required.
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Mike Guilbault

MHMG

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 09:52:39 am »

I can't personally think of a single photographer that uses the term Giclee to describe his/her original photographs printed by inkjet technology on matte or "photo" type media, but the term does seem to have made a real and useful inroad into commercial decor canvas applications and with artists that offer "limited print editions" of their original art.  In the limited edition category, the public seems to understand/accept that the piece they are considering buying is indeed a reproduction, yet Giclee in this context now implies it's a superior art reproduction, both in color fidelity and in longevity (which is often but not always true). If the industry had just stuck with evangelizing inkjet, then inkjet as a term in the art world might have eventually been accepted, but "giclee" shortened the evangelization time for many artists. Prior to the acceptance of "giclee" as an identifiable category, this latter group of artists often turned to companies offering relatively inexpensive litho printing, but keeping costs low required the artist to commit to a single higher volume production run than inkjet "print-on-demand" technology requires. They could describe the reproduction as a " limited edition litho" print and this term had the advantage of being ambiguous, ie. was it a cheap litho made by a commercial printing company or a hand made litho made in the artist's own studio.

Bottom line for me: I stay clear of using the term for my own photography, but I fully understand its usefulness to many artists trying to offer high quality reproductions at lower pricing barriers to their art. For my own photographic prints, I embed metadata (usually by backprinting) that clearly identifies the materials and processes I have chosen to make the piece, e.g. camera, printer, ink, media, and coatings where applicable. I take pride in the materials and processes I use, and my audience usually responds favorably to my enthusiasm for digital print technologies.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 09:57:04 am by MHMG »
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JeanMichel

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2012, 10:27:36 am »

My two cents' worth:

According to the Petit Larousse dictionary:
Giclée: noun, feminin, Jet d'un liquide qui gicle. [spurt, squirt (Robet and Collins) jet from a liquid that spurts, squirts, sprays]
Gicler: verb: jaillir ou rejaillir avec force, souvent en éclaboussant, en parlant d'un liquide. [spurt or spray forcefully, often by splashing or spattering, a liquid]

Jean-Michel
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Sven W

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 11:10:41 am »

+ for Pigment print.

Actually the term "giclee" was more of a method rather than a technique.
To precisely reproduce an art work (high end scan or BetterLight back) and print on a matching substrate.

I was arguing a while ago with the photography conservator at the Swedish MoMA about the term "pigment print".
He didn't like it, because the term already exist as "pigment photography" a.k.a. "carbon print" (1864-ca 1930).
But on the other hand they solved it by just calling the inkjet prints "not to be classified as a true photograph"  ???
How about that !

/Sven
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Don Libby

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 11:33:06 am »

I've met a few clients who thought that a Giclee print was so much better than anything else and based on that it was the the most preferred image.  They actually wouldn't consider an image if it wasn't listed as a "Giclee".  That changes shortly after I inform them the word basically means "squirt" and just refers to the act of laying ink onto the media by the printer.  I personally don't like using the term and try not to when describing our work.

Don

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2012, 12:38:16 pm »

As an epithet it works just fine: "Why, you little Giclee, you!!!"
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John R Smith

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2012, 02:32:26 pm »

But on the other hand they solved it by just calling the inkjet prints "not to be classified as a true photograph"  ???
How about that !
/Sven

Actually, I believe that is correct. Photography is literally "drawing with light", as we know, and this should apply to the whole process, not just the capture of the image. So traditional photography should involve a chemical print, exposed to light and developed in the conventioanl way.

Quite how we redefine our ink-jet printing from a digital source I am not quite sure. But I am sure that using a silly pretentious term like "giclee" does not help much.

John
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Sven W

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2012, 04:40:43 pm »

Well, I definitely have other criteria for defining "a photograph", than the old analogue light-and-development-system.
So if a museum buys a, say, Stephen Johnson art work, made with a BetterLight back and printed on an Epson, they
don't call it a photograph??

/Sven

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plui

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Re: To Giclee or Not To Giclee
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2012, 06:02:35 pm »

Salesmanship 101 says talk to your client in language they understand.  It's our job to know what all the words are and use them as required.

I've been asked if I produce 'zhee-sslay' a few times by different interior designers. I just say 'yes' and skip the gory details. The discussion from there usually goes toward sizes and finishes ie. frame/unframe. 

Photographers ask me for "prints" or "canvases".

Relatives and family call them "Christmas gifts", "Wedding gifts" or "Birthday presents"
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