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Author Topic: normal dE deviation on dark patches for i1isis?  (Read 5831 times)

smilem

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normal dE deviation on dark patches for i1isis?
« on: February 14, 2012, 12:46:42 pm »

Hello, what is considered normal dE for deviation when reading same page multiple times on dark patches for i1isis?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:49:07 pm by smilem »
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Ethan_Hansen

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Re: normal dE deviation on dark patches for i1isis?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 02:01:30 pm »

Dark patches are indeed the worst case. The problem is that the i1iSis uses an i1 for the measurements. On a ~1500 patch target we typically see the worst 10% of patches having deviation of ~0.25 dE-2000, with the worst case being 0.5 - 0.6 dE-2000 if the measurements are driven by Argyll or MeasureTool and worst 10% of 0.3/worst case 0.6 - 0.8dE-2000  if i1Profiler is used to control the i1iSis.

Compared to X-Rite's older instruments, this isn't as good (Spectroscan: worst 10% <0.2, worst case <0.4; iCColor: worst 10% <0.2, worst case < 0.45).

The real problem is the occasional flyer where the measurement appears not to have be made in exactly the correct location. The most recent i1Profiler kicks out measurements that do not match the expected values. The MeasurementTolerance field in XRi1G2WorkflowSettings.ini controls the sensitivity. Unfortunately, i1Profiler won't give the data from measurements that are rejected, and from the best we can tell, the pass/fail criteria are based on assumed measurement colors for a given input (RGB or CMYK) value.

Our charts include a number of repeated color patches. These are used to determine orientation or page placement sensitivity of the printer and, relevant to the iSis, whether measurement errors occur. We process the files through our own profiling code which checks these patches. We have seeninstances where the iSis gives deviations of over 2 dE-2000 between two patches that should have the same color. Remeasuring showed they were identical, as did spot checks with a Spectroscan.

The problem appears to be that the measurement placement is slightly off, so the data are corrupted by a neighboring patch. Supporting this theory, the worst case tends to be between patches measured at the top corner of the chart compared to those at the opposite corner at the bottom. The increased measurement speed of i1Profiler over MeasureTool or Argyll makes matters worse. Without the ability to verify measurements independently of i1Profiler all you get is inaccurate profiles.

The measurement problems can be reduced by either using a slower measurement tool (e.g. Argyll or MeasureTool) or by modifying the target. Bumping the patch size up from the minimum of 6mm helps. Having a final, printed dimension of at least 6.3mm reduces measurement outliers to a rare occurrence (Target image size depends on how you print the charts. If you use ACPU, with its resizing, you need to make the charts accordingly larger). How you feed the charts into the iSis also matters. Having the chart centered in the measurement feed (and being less than maximum width) prevents the paper from bumping against the side of the slot.

smilem

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Re: normal dE deviation on dark patches for i1isis?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 04:05:04 pm »

I use patches that are 0.65x0.65 and the ISO standard specifies patches for isis as 0.85x0.85, the only problems is that this means you waste 2x more paper and it takes two times longer to scan.

With the 0.65x0.65 I see:
Maximum Total worst ~0.36 ~0.42 dE-2000
The Average total 0.04 0.08
      Best 90%   0.03 0.07
      Worst 10% 0.12 0.18

Target measured was IT8.7-4. This is way better that i1iO that had 5x worse reading on standard table until I improved it by machining new table and changing belts. The whole system of i1iO is going to be ready soon I hope the accuracy improves as it is only tool to measure thick media. (X-rite could have designed the isis that you could change height of the media by lifting up the reading head or whole assembly)

I have question about measurement.
Is it right to have to print 2 copies of charts of IT8.7-4 and  then average them together for better accuracy to pass FOGRA certification that states less than 1-1.5 dE for average dE?
Or is it counter intuitive? I ask because I see large 2.52 dE-2000 for maximum dE (dark patches very different on two sheets):

Maximum Total worst 2.52 dE-2000
The Average total 0.32
      Best 90%   0.26
      Worst 10% 0.88

And I have not done the certification yet, just asking ?

I too use MeasureTool because it is more flexible and chart resolution is 101dpi not the nonsense you get with i1Profiler. With i1Profiler targets will not fit 100% into a sheet of paper when you try to print them, same with Colorport, and you resize them "nearest neighbor" with photoshop you get artifacts.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 04:15:52 pm by smilem »
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digitaldog

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Re: normal dE deviation on dark patches for i1isis?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 04:47:51 pm »

If you have the time and can produce the output, averaging is always a good idea.
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TylerB

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Re: normal dE deviation on dark patches for i1isis?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 09:56:06 pm »

weighted averaging in i1Profiler would be nice to see, instead of moving backwards from where they were in MeasureTool....
Tyler
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