Help with Arca/Phase/Rodenstock lens decision please.

[ScottK]

I am planning on buying a Arca-Swiss M-Line Two, and using a Phase One back on it. Probably a used 65+ if I can find one cheap enough. An IQ180 would be even nicer.

For lenses I have come up with 5 of them from Rodenstock. They are all Apo-Sironar digital except the 1 Apo-Macro-Sironar Digital. They include the 35mm, 55mm, 105mm and 180mm. The Macro is 120mm.

I would be using this outdoors for landscape and nature photography, in all weather conditions, including -50 Celcius weather.

Any thoughts and suggestions on back choice and lens choices would be much appreciated. I am open to different brands of digital backs and lenses.

And if your wanting to sell some of your equipment I may be open to that to.

Thanks,
ScottK

[ChristopherBarrett]

I would really try to avoid the Rodie 35mm Digi Apo Sironar, the Schneider 35mm XL is a much better lens.  That said, you may have difficulty focusing the 35mm on the M Line 2.  View cameras have fairly course focusing mechanisms for lenses that wide.  I just spent the last week shooting with my M Line 2 but only use it for 90mm and longer.  I really prefer my Rm3d for wide angle stuff.  It's focusing mechanism is much, much finer.

The 55 is a really decent lens for the money with a huge image circle.  Also look at the 70 and 90 HR-W's as those are some of the best lenses Rodenstock makes, for the money.

I have in depth reviews of both systems on my blog...

M Line 2
Rm3d

Yada, yada...

CB

[ScottK]

Thanks Chris. Actually it was your blog that got me interested in the M-Line two in the first place. Being that Arca-Swiss refuses to make a web-site I would have never have known about it otherwise.

That said, you now got me more interested in the RM3di. I do not cherish the thought of lugging a view camera around the bush ever again and fighting to set it up before the lighting changes. In frustration I sold my 4 X 5 about 10 years ago.

After a little more research into the RM3di I noticed that it does have tilt, and one can shift the sensor on the back of the camera without affecting the lens. Back to looking at camera porn...!

[nazdravanul]

Arca-swiss does have a website, with a lot of details and even some good presentation films for the R-line, but there's a small catch ... it's in French .

http://www.magasin-arca-swiss.com/index1.html

[gazwas]

I shoot with an M-Line2 and must say it is one fine camera and has a good range of movements that many pancake cameras can only dream about. As Chris said, the focus is a little course but if you dial the resistance up on the focusing mechanism you can make extremely fine adjustments very easily and I have never had problems focusing accurately with it.

The problem I see using the M-Line is its not really a landscape camera IMO. I shoot studio and interiors with mine and always tethered to a laptop to fine tune focus. Most cases for interiors I set the first shot up and focus via the GG then mount the back. The back then usually never leaves the camera unless I change lens as the focus always seem pretty constant in interior photography and its easy to visualise composition by eye. A click and the image appears on the laptop to fine tune composition and focus if needed. My point being its not that easy to tether in -50 Celsius weather.

Also focusing on a GG with a loupe in bright daylight is very difficult as the images washes out and a dark cloth is essential. Something extra to carry that you don't need to worry about on a pancake camera.

With regards lens choice why only Rodenstock, especially as your planning on a P65? I shoot SK43, RS90 and SK120. I tried the RS40 and could see no difference in the fall off of each lens and only very slightly better lens cast at the limits of the IC compared to the SK43. The SK43 however as a landscape lens is considerably more compact, lighter in weight, has zero distortion to worry about and has fantastic indented aperture selection that is much easier to use in bad lighting or with cold hands. Its also worth noting I had much more of a problem with flare on the Rodenstock.  

Both the RS40 an SK43 are excellent optics but unless your shooting with a IQ180 or Aptus 12, IMO the Schneider has some unique qualities that should not be ignored.

[ScottK]

When I had my 4 X 5 I used a Nikkor 300, Schneider 210, Schneider 120 and a Nikkor 90. So I don't have anything against Schneider. Rodenstock's web-site makes it easier to research and compare their lenses, plus I have heard some really good reviews on quite a few of them.

Those lenses would be approximately equal to a 40mm, 55mm, 100mm, 135mm in Medium Format. I am wondering at what focal length do you find that you never use tilts and or shifts? I haven't used a view camera in so long I don't remember what I did, but do remember I would have liked to have had an even longer lens, but would probably not have needed any movements with them. I would also like to be able to do some wildlife photography and either carry a 645 camera with a few longer lenses (I know they don't make em very long) or a 35mm system with a few telephoto zooms (This is getting heavy isn't it!).

So now, if I stuck with just 3 lenses I would be looking at:

Schneider Apo Digitar 35XL/5.6 or Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 40/4.0, for my widest lens
Schneider Apo Digitar 72L/5.6 or Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 70/5.6 for my medium lens
Schneider Apo Digitar 120/5.6 or Rodenstock Apo-Sironar digital 135/5.6

Maybe one would never feel that they had the right lens if they only had 3 with them. Any comments on this?

The only reason I picked the P65+ back is that it seemed to be fairly well priced in used condition. Not sure how the Leaf digital backs would stand up to cold weather use? Any comments on this? Of course, when I become rich and famous, I will be buying the Phase One IQ200 back, and will need top notch lenses for it. So I want to do this right the first time.

I might as well ask about the use of macro lenses also. Anyone used them with their RM3di? Could it take the place of one normal lens? I have never played with macro lenses before so am very unfamiliar with them.

 

[gazwas]

At this rate you'll need 5 different cameras and a mule to carry it all.

To start, lens brand choice SK or RS? You are correct that you want to make the right choice but buying lenses for a camera that doesn't even exist using unknown technology is very difficult and pretty pointless. If current chip technology doesn't change, IMO Rodenstock's (weak) retrofocus design lenses won't work with 200Mpix chips or probably Phase Ones own for that matter due to huge lens cast issues.

As for focal length choices its obviously very personal but my only deviation from your line up would be the new SK60/5.6 that is reported to be extremely sharp and with a massive 120mm image circle.

IMO, from a IQ point of view lenses over 60mm are not really needed on a LF camera as the Phase One DSLR lenses are very good at the longer end. Take for example the 80D/SK80LS, SK110LS, 120macro or the 150D, all very sharp optics. Unless you have a particular need for stitching I'd stick to wides on a tech camera for landscape photography and leave the longs on a DSLR.

Likewise for macro, I'd stick to the Phase 120macro and focus stack for more DOF. Movements on macro lenses are very problematic at very high magnification levels and the image very difficult to see with very long bellows extension. This is however a role better suited to the M-Line rather than the RM3di as lens and I think back spacers are needed for macro photography.

Very long lenses for wildlife.... stick to 35mm for sure.

[cng]

Rodenstock's web-site makes it easier to research and compare their lenses.

IMO Schneider's website has more information on their lenses than Rodenstock, providing MTF and distortion charts for all their lenses.  Rodenstock's PDF's only show charts for a select few of their lenses.

Maybe one would never feel that they had the right lens if they only had 3 with them. Any comments on this?

"Only" three lenses?  That seems like plenty to me.  The less gear, the better IMO.  Focal length choice is not about covering all bases, it's primarily about choosing how you see the world.  My first choice lenses are the SK43 and SK60 because they seem the most natural to me, and I don't like anything too wide.  I use my SK35 and SK150 only when I absolutely need them.

If you want infinite focal length choice then a 35mm DSLR with a zoom or two would suit perfectly.

I might as well ask about the use of macro lenses also. Anyone used them with their RM3di? Could it take the place of one normal lens? I have never played with macro lenses before so am very unfamiliar with them.

Macro on a tech camera seems counter-intuitive and an exercise in frustration, although I know that others have done it successfully.  Never tried it myself.  Check out the videos by Optechs Digital on this topic.

At this rate you'll need 5 different cameras and a mule to carry it all. [...] As for focal length choices its obviously very personal but my only deviation from your line up would be the new SK60/5.6 that is reported to be extremely sharp and with a massive 120mm image circle.

The new SK60 is a great lens.  Lots of movement available with little/no colour cast and some mild (but aesthetically nice) vignetting.  I regularly shift my SK60 +/-20mm with no problems.  I prefer the SK60 over the 70/72mm lenses, which seem IMO an unexciting focal length.

You have a very long wishlist.  If you are thinking of predominantly shooting wide, then consider a tech camera as Chris Barrett suggested.  Longer lenses are do-able on a tech camera, although focusing can be tricky, and once you nail focus the results are amazing.  My main reason for getting the SK150 was because I didn't want to carry two different systems around for shorter/longer focal lengths.

[Kevin Sink]

I just went through this process, and I will throw my 2 cents in for the Rodenstock 32mm which I have on order.  Expensive, but larger functional image circle than the Schneider 35mm, allowing for more camera movements.  I also second the Schneider 60mm - probably one of the sharpest out there from my research.

[Guy Mancuso]

I have the SK 60 XL and I can tell you it is maybe the best lens I ever shot. I just bought the SK120 and sold my 90mm. I did have a go with the Rodie 28 on my 160 and that maybe my next lens. I would keep my 35XL lens if I did get the 28. I like the 28 focal length a lot

[johnasmith]

Hi Scott I was right where you are about two years ago,looking at the same camera.I bought the Arca Rl3d camera and I'am glad I did,for a lot reasons.First the focusing of
the wide angle lens, you will have a hard time with these on focusing, also even with longer lens some what because you'll be focusing
on a small area of glass.The rail camera is also larger and bulky compared to the R Line from Arca.Even though I have the larger Rl3d, the Rm3d is a small camera.With
the R cameras you have this large focusing ring that you can come up with numbers for focusing distances some all you have to do is turn to that number
and compose your image and you will know what distance you will have in and out focus and tilts to.I have made up cards of my hyper focal distances
and with the aid of my leupold rx-1000 I can measure the distances to find my hyper focal distances, and also have made up charts to tilt by,and by using the
rx-1000 it also has the angle of degree to help on your tilts.If you go to my web site look in Canadian images of Bow lake no focusing just tilt and f11 rocks at
the foot of tripod to top of the mountain is in focus.Once again I'am very glad I when with Arca R line over all the other tec-cameras because of the focusing
ring on that camera,and you can tilt with ALL lens with this camera,I also have the rodie 55mm lens for 125mm image circle and I've made 30x40 prints from this lens
even at f16 and they are super sharp,but I would like to trade for the 60mm sc lens which I hear is very very good.I also have sc43mm super sharp lens,70mm rodie w wow what a
sharp lens,also the 120mm sc lens I use this lens a lot, also the 150mm rodie very sharp lens at 30x40  all on P65 back.If you would like more info on my cards ect just email me from my website
and or call Steve at Capture Intergration,they can help a lot

[Brian Hirschfeld]

The only reason I picked the P65+ back is that it seemed to be fairly well priced in used condition. Not sure how the Leaf digital backs would stand up to cold weather use? Any comments on this? Of course, when I become rich and famous, I will be buying the Phase One IQ200 back, and will need top notch lenses for it. So I want to do this right the first time.

My diplomatic response to the Leaf comment is: on youtube there are videos of PhaseOne backs being stress tested physically, as well as in extreme heat and cold (big oven and dry ice) and it still preformed after these tests, and I have never seen a single video of leaf doing this.

Aside from questionable equality in terms of build quality, which may be subjective, but undeniably there are vents on the side for the fan, and the battery is external, these factors may be limiting in its applications for cold weather and other harsh environments.

[adammork]

My diplomatic response to the Leaf comment is: on youtube there are videos of PhaseOne backs being stress tested physically, as well as in extreme heat and cold (big oven and dry ice) and it still preformed after these tests, and I have never seen a single video of leaf doing this.

Aside from questionable equality in terms of build quality, which may be subjective, but undeniably there are vents on the side for the fan, and the battery is external, these factors may be limiting in its applications for cold weather and other harsh environments.

I now use an iQ160, but when it's cold, I'm kind of missing the design of my old Aptus because of the external battery! due to the very easy mount and unmount of the battery, it was always in a warm pocket when not shooting - meaning longer battery life.

"questionable equality in terms of build quality" for how many year's have you been shooting with a Leaf, and what problem did the build quality gave you?? 

Sorry for the rant, but you see again and again that the Leaf vents and fans are subjects to criticism, but seldom, if ever, from photographers who actually have used them in harsh environments like my self.

The Phase backs are build very good, so are the Leafs from my experience.

/adam