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Author Topic: i1Profiler 1.2.0 sRGB bug?  (Read 10140 times)

digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler 1.2.0 sRGB bug?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 08:40:20 pm »

Why not leave it at native gamma?

No reason not to.

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Maybe because it's nice to have the 95% of programs that are not color aware look nice?

Non ICC aware applications simply have no way to show you color appearance consistently and correctly so I don’t worry about them. I might prefer they were color managed however.

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So why shouldn't someone calibrate to sRGB TRC for some of that stuff and to gamma 2.2 for the rest?

You are discussing calibration and profiling which work hand in hand, then asking why applications that don’t understand ether should affect how we calibrate and profile FOR ICC aware applications. It is pointless.

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And in this case here, he has a wide gamut monitor and most likely the only reason he is even in the sRGB emulation mode is to deal with non-managed software. For the most part, when you are using an sRGB emulation mode on a wide gamut monitor it is because you are dealing with non-color aware programs, otherwise you probably are going to want to have it in native gamut mode.

Yes and I would submit that any combo of gamma, or for that matter calibration settings for the emulation could work equally well. You keep suggesting that the TRC 2.2 gamma is necessary, others are less good. You haven’t provided anything to prove that point. I keep saying that working with non ICC aware applications, all bets are off. Futz around with any settings you want so the non ICC aware app ‘looks good’. There is a significant differences in are disagreements in those two cases. Gamma 2.2, sRGB TRC, gamma 1.9.3, whatever.

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Yes, but what about for all the non-ICC aware stuff?

I told you, the previews are science fiction. They don’t know squat about the color space of a document. They don’t know squat about the ICC profile of the display. You might as well just futz around with all the goofy OSD controls and make the display look pretty and move on. A gamma setting is simply not worth considering.

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As for banding and such it depends whether it's an internal high bit LUT monitor like the OP has or someone relying on an 8bit graphics card LUT.
Yes it does. That doesn’t change anything about viewing color in non ICC aware applications nor that a sRGB TRC is ‘better’ than anything else.
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WombatHorror

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Re: i1Profiler 1.2.0 sRGB bug?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 10:21:32 pm »

I think the real problem is perhaps that you are so used to thinking of a monitor as nothing more and nothing less than a device on which to proof prints using ICC aware software and that you are too stuck in that mindset.

No reason not to.
Non ICC aware applications simply have no way to show you color appearance consistently and correctly so I don’t worry about them. I might prefer they were color managed however.

I suppose that all the people who calibrate their HDTVs are just wasting their time then?
I guess you like to watch movies using whatever horrid default settings most sets are shipped with then?

You seem to forget that most images and colors on the web are in sRGB gamut and assume sRGB TRC and that most video and movies and TV stuff is in sRGB/REC709 gamut and that one can very well worry about them in non-managed apps considering that things like windows media center, powerdvd, externla blu-ray players, Internet Explorer, desktop, etc. etc. are not ICC aware since you know exactly what the source expects as the destination.

If have a regular monitor with no fancy internal LUT, you should still try to do what you can do bring it closest to sRGB+sRGB TRC or to sRGB+gamma 2.2 (or whatever matches video/tv/movie viewing best under the circumstances). Some programs still make use of the graphics card LUT so at least white point and TRC might be correct and for the ones that are not some things. When talking about HDTV instead some have fairly extensive calibration controls.

In this case the OP has a NEC PA, you can dial in a calibration inside the monitor and any program will make use of the calibration, anything you plug into the monitor will. In fact, as I've said, and even shown, a non-calibrated program fed sRGB gamut material will result in your seeing the material closer to spec than if you using ICC aware programs on some standard sRGB monitor that isn't even capable of hitting sRGB primaries and where the profile might not correct things as well as the PA series does things due to its extreme linearity and 3D high bit LUT.


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You are discussing calibration and profiling which work hand in hand, then asking why applications that don’t understand ether should affect how we calibrate and profile FOR ICC aware applications. It is pointless.

When did I say that it affects how we calibrate for ICC aware applications?

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Yes and I would submit that any combo of gamma, or for that matter calibration settings for the emulation could work equally well. You keep suggesting that the TRC 2.2 gamma is necessary, others are less good.

Wow when have I been saying that a TRC gamma 2.2 is necessary for sRGB image viewing??
I keep saying sRGB TRC is not that gamma 2.2 TRC is. You are the one who keeps saying gamma 2.2 TRC is good enough. And then when I start talking about sRGB TRC vs gamma 2.2 TRC you tell me that of course you know that sRGB isn't defined to use gamma 2.2 TRC but here you are again.

If you are, say are using IE to browse, i.e. a web browser than does not understand monitor profiles at all, then yes calibrating to sRGB TRC would be better since then it would show things with the proper response and it would look a little bit more accurate than if you had calibrated the monitor to gamma 2.2 and perhaps vastly better than if you left it set to native gamut.

(I also have a very sneaking suspicion that a few color aware apps appear to take a short cut if they spot an sRGB source image and seem to skip any TRC compensation steps and assume gamma 2.2 is good enough and assume your display is gamma 2.2, granted that may be on them for not carrying out all steps. But it could be a reason, if you use such programs, to sometimes also calibrate to sRGB TRC instead of gamma 2.2 or native gamut. I'm not sure what they are doing differently, but the tone response doesn't match what say photoshop or firefox or irfanview do and the author of one appear surprised to hear that sRGB images were not encoded as gamma 2.2)

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 You haven’t provided anything to prove that point. I keep saying that working with non ICC aware applications, all bets are off. Futz around with any settings you want so the non ICC aware app ‘looks good’.

For non-managed programs you to get everything as close as you can. If you can get the white point and TRC correct then at least do that.

With something like the OP has, a fancy monitor with a 14bit 3D LUT that can be programmed into a beautiful sRGB emulation if you then go and view an sRGB image using photoshop and then with IE, guess what they will look the same if you calibrated the mode to sRGB TRC.

The monitor carries out the mode so well that the image will look better in IE than it would in photoshop using a fancy monitor profile on some whatever monitor, even.

If you set it to sRGB gamut, D65, gamma 2.2-2.4/REC 709 TRC or what not you can then view TV/movies in beautiful fashion, it doesn't matter if the player programs knows a single thing about color management. The set it perfectly calibrated internally to accept the video.



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I told you, the previews are science fiction.

what previews?

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They don’t know squat about the color space of a document. They don’t know squat about the ICC profile of the display. You might as well just futz around with all the goofy OSD controls and make the display look pretty and move on. A gamma setting is simply not worth considering.

Utter nonsense, tell that to an HDTV calibrator.

And in this case, regarding the OP, it's particularly nonsense since his monitor has such a near perfect emulation mode (the set can be 100% internally calibrated to match spec better than any regular monitor would do even using ICC aware software). If you feed it an sRGB image or DVD or bluray using a non-color management aware program it most definitely will look correct and not like some random choice.


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That doesn’t change anything about viewing color in non ICC aware applications nor that a sRGB TRC is ‘better’ than anything else.


it does if the goal is to say use IE to surf images on the web, or use some 3D program that assumes sRGB display conditions, especially in his case, where the monitor can have all the rest perfectly calibrated on top of just the white point and trc.

if he is viewing a movie then he probably does not want to use it calibrated to sRGB TRC though and probably want to use the broadcast video mode. He may wish to setup in SV II a Broadcast Video mode with sRGB gamut, something like gamma 2.2, D65 (for TV/movies/video/certain games and programs) and then he may wish to setup an sRGB emulation mode with it set to sRGB gamut, sRGB TRC, D65 (for web browsing/some games and programs) and a setup a Native Gamut mode with native gamut, D65 and maybe gamma 2.2 or native gamma (for photo editing/viewing/print proofing in color managed software) or maybe even a special print proof mode where he programs the set to be closer to his paper/ink/printer combo (depends whether that or softproof in the software works better), etc.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 10:32:16 pm by WombatHorror »
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digitaldog

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Re: i1Profiler 1.2.0 sRGB bug?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 10:44:06 pm »

I think the real problem is perhaps that you are so used to thinking of a monitor as nothing more and nothing less than a device on which to proof prints using ICC aware software and that you are too stuck in that mindset.

No, I recognize there are two ways to treat the previews your display shows you. One is correct and based on color management, the other isn’t. I don’t look at the one that isn’t and wonder what those RGB values will look like on a piece of paper. If they don’t look correct, I don’t worry about it, I understand the process isn’t color managed. I’m not expecting a match. I

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I suppose that all the people who calibrate their HDTVs are just wasting their time then?

IF they prefer the color they see, great. They are not trying to match the HDTV to something else, they have zero control over altering the RGB values as we have to do in imaging applications.

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I guess you like to watch movies using whatever horrid default settings most sets are shipped with then?

No, I don’t prefer horrid defaults over better appearing defaults. But the image I see isn’t something I have to edit or reproduce to another media.

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You seem to forget that most images and colors on the web are in sRGB gamut and assume sRGB TRC and that most video and movies and TV stuff is in sRGB/REC709 gamut and that one can very well worry about them in non-managed apps considering that things like windows media center, powerdvd, externla blu-ray players, Internet Explorer, desktop, etc. etc. are not ICC aware since you know exactly what the source expects as the destination.

Not necessarily, and even if I agreed every image is in sRGB (which is ridiculous), outside of an ICC aware method of viewing that data, sRGB is meaningless. I can alter the OSD controls and make a pretty picture just like I can with my HDTV. There is zero rationale to suggest I use a specific TRC or a TRC that matches sRGB as you’ve proposed. Just turn the knobs to make everything look nice. The actual TRC is meaningless, it looks good.

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In this case the OP has a NEC PA, you can dial in a calibration inside the monitor and any program will make use of the calibration, anything you plug into the monitor will.

Yes you can. You suggest the gamma should be an sRGB TRC, I say it doesn’t matter. The data viewed is uncalibrated, non ICC aware. Whatever setting anyone visually prefers is AOK. There is nothing here that suggests it must be a 2.2 TRC that mimics sRGB. Further, I submit nailing sRGB isn’t necessary.

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Wow when have I been saying that a TRC gamma 2.2 is necessary for sRGB image viewing??

I said in the first post, the sRGB calibration target (which causes a bug) is unnecessary, you appear to disagree and off we go.

To sum it up: The Gamma setting isn’t important in ICC aware applications. Outside ICC aware applications, anything is game. The sRGB or 2.2 setting could equally make one group prefer the non color managed preview on a display over the other. It doesn’t matter.
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WombatHorror

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Re: i1Profiler 1.2.0 sRGB bug?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2012, 12:11:05 am »

No, I recognize there are two ways to treat the previews your display shows you. One is correct and based on color management, the other isn’t. I don’t look at the one that isn’t and wonder what those RGB values will look like on a piece of paper. If they don’t look correct, I don’t worry about it, I understand the process isn’t color managed. I’m not expecting a match.

It is based on something when you know what the source will be. If you are aiming only for sRGB image display or only for ATSC TV or DVD or blu-ray, yes you do know exactly what the source will be.

And yes you can tune some HDTVs pretty well, as with most sRGB-like monitor they fall a touch short hear and there of hitting the primaries or this or that but you can really get some of them quite close and yes it does make one heck of a difference.

Granted some you can't really do much to and they may be stuck with very far off saturation curves way over pumped primary luminance gamma 2.9 or who knows what and then you are stuck.

But to say there is no point in calibrating something has has 10pt white balance and TRC controls and a full CMS is ridiculous.

And again in the case in the thread the OP has a NEC PA! You can dial in the primaries perfectly! You can dial in the TRC as you wish. You can set the white point. I can get it closer, all internally calibrated to spec for say watching DVDs than I could get my old monitor even using ICC aware programs and CEDP!

The entire point of the 14 bit 3D internal LUT and sRGB emulation ability is so you can tune it in, do the whole thing internally and then it will work perfectly with ANY program or source that sends it the sort of material it got calibrated too.


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IF they prefer the color they see, great. They are not trying to match the HDTV to something else, they have zero control over altering the RGB values as we have to do in imaging applications.

WHo says they have zero control? Have you see the controls on a modern HDTV? And yes they sure are trying to match it something specific.

And again with the NEC PA that the OP has, he has every control he could possible need. He can get it set for truer display of those sources than someone could with any consumer standard gamut monitor could evenif they used the most advaned profiling software and wrote idealized custom color management aware video software.

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But the image I see isn’t something I have to edit or reproduce to another media.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

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Not necessarily, and even if I agreed every image is in sRGB (which is ridiculous), outside of an ICC aware method of viewing that data, sRGB is meaningless. I can alter the OSD controls and make a pretty picture just like I can with my HDTV. There is zero rationale to suggest I use a specific TRC or a TRC that matches sRGB as you’ve proposed. Just turn the knobs to make everything look nice. The actual TRC is meaningless, it looks good.

1. by far most images on the web and most sites are set up as sRGB and sure there are a few AdobeRGB and whatnot around and yeah a totally unmanaged browser will mess those up, however, pretty much all browsers at least translate everything to sRGB even if they do no more so they would still look OK even in IE.

2. There is not zero rationale. The rationale is to MOVE the primaries to sRGB primary locations! And to set everything else as needed. With the NEC PA everything is set internally. If it is set to the standard it darn well does something for you when you use IE to browse or Media Center to watch TV etc.


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To sum it up: The Gamma setting isn’t important in ICC aware applications. Outside ICC aware applications, anything is game. The sRGB or 2.2 setting could equally make one group prefer the non color managed preview on a display over the other. It doesn’t matter.

Anything is not game when you know what the source will be and if the display can be made to approach the source. It's called basic class one sRGB color management where the input is assumed to be in sRGB and the output device automatically handles things as sRGB.

With some HDTV you can adjust them to be pretty close to the source and with the NEC PA you set it as exactly as you can.

Do you know what I see when I set my PA to sRGB gamut, D65, sRGB TRC and then view an image in a non-managed viewer and in photoshop? Zero difference!

You know what I see when I view a DVD in a non-managed player and in a managed one when I set it to sRGB gamut, D65 and gamma 2.2 Zero difference! The color management is being done only in this is has been able to have been done 100% through device calibration.
 
Do you know what I see when I set my PA to sRGB gamut and then shift the red primary way up, D93, gamma 2.8 and then view an sRGB image in a managed and un-managed viewer? a big difference and even with the managed viewer it still won't look quite as it did in the earlier situation if the image contains certain colors since the monitor has been set so that it can't display all sRGB colors now. In fact this means that using a color managed viewer now the image won't even be able to be shown in all it's glory and it will need some form of gamut mapping or clipping and yet in the earlier case, with an unmanaged program, it would display everything as it should with no clipping.

Anyway this is getting tiresome, so I am done with it. You may know a real lot when it comes to certain scenarios but you definitely are off-base when it comes to other scenarios and there are a lot of HDTV calibrators and color science guys who would be a bit shocked by some of things you have said. Although maybe it's just some sort of misunderstanding.
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WombatHorror

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Re: i1Profiler 1.2.0 sRGB bug?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2012, 03:54:32 pm »

Hey there,

just playing arround with i1Profiler, but there seems to be something strange, would be very nice if someone could confirm this behaviour or bug, to check if there is a problem on my end..
I try to calibrate with standard settings (D65, flare off, ambient light off, ADC off, Bradford, ICC v2, Matrix based ) but with "sRGB" tonal response curve instead of gamma 2.2!
With gamma 2.2 everything works fine, but as soon as I use sRGB at the end of the measurement the screen keeps white and nothing happens anymore  :'(
Tried with i1Profiler 1.2.0 on a Win 7 x64 machine with i1Display pro.

Do you experience the same problem?
Thanks in advance!

Wow I just realized that in all our arguing we actually came up with the solution for your problem.

I hadn't used the new i1Profiler yet but as pointed out, it offers the option for native gamma! Since you want to use Multiprofiler to set as much internally as possible and it does allow for TRC settings there is no need for the i1Profiler to be messing with the TRC at all! Do the TRC stuff entirely in MP and leave i1profiler set to native gamma so it doesn't meddle with the TRC, why woulkd it need to calibrate to sRGB TRC or gamma 2.2 if the monitor is already there? And you'd want the TRC to be set inside the monitor to take advantage of the high bit internal LUT rather than the graphics card LUT which is low bit and won't end up getting applied to blu-ray or games. Since you are making a v2 profiler there would be no option for it to have recorded gamma 2.2 or sRGB TRC by function and I guess it would have to be LUT sampled TRC profiling anyway.

So all you do is use multiprofiler to instruct the set to set itself to sRGB TRC and then leave i1profiler on native gamma and then since the native gamma was made to be sRGB TRC that is what you'll have.


So you can use i1profiler to measure a white patch while using whitepoint xy adjuster in Multiprofiler until you hit .313,.329 reading in i1profiler for white point

and then you can use multiprofiler to set sRGB gamut (perhaps also use the i1 Display pro to measure pure red 255,0,0 g 0,255,0 b 0,0,255 patches and adjust in MP the primary locations until they hit the sRGB primary xy coords, if you feel like bothering, for a new set it might not really help anything)

and use multiprofiler to set sRGB TRC (although you may want to make a second custom sRGB emulation mode where you chose gamma 2.2 instead since that would work out better for tv/videos/movies/some games and flip between the sRGB emulation versions depending upon what you are doing)

and then you can run iprofiler set for D65, native gamma, matrix-based and it won't really do much other than associate an ICC profile for the monitor's current internal settings for the screen. So basically how you had it set only change i1profiler to native gamma mode, there is no need for it to calibrate the TRC since the monitor can be programmed to that itself with multi-profiler.



For photo editing/viewing you'd want to make a native gamut programmed mode using multi-profiler. Set MP for D65, native gamut, either gamma 2.2 or perhaps native gamma is better. Set i1 profiler for D65,matrix-based, native gamma.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 03:57:00 pm by WombatHorror »
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