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Author Topic: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?  (Read 24666 times)

hjulenissen

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2012, 10:56:42 am »

Which makes me wonder if camera manufacturers have hit the limit with the Bayer pattern sensor...
I am surprised you come to this conclusion if it is based on the couple of preseding posts. Would the previous posts not rather suggest that the camera manufacturers may have hit the limit of lense resolution for 35mm?

I believe that a monochrome or (currently non-realizable) Foveon/3CCD-sensor may read 4x or so the number of photons for a given sensor size/lense and may give a relevant spatial resolution improvement anywhere from 1x to 2x in each dimension for a flawless lense, and assuming that OLPF can be seriously relaxed. (Ie if the lense is the significant limitation, benefits of exotic sensors over Bayer should be smaller than expected).

I belive that other noise-sources can be improved for all sensor types without hitting similar "hard physical walls" anytime soon. (Ie, I believe that dynamic range at low ISO can be significantly improved for Bayer).

-h
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:04:17 am by hjulenissen »
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BJL

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"sweet-spot" f-stop is naturally smaller in smaller formats
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2012, 11:20:45 am »

... to counter diffraction they must be shot ~ 2/3 stops more open in aperture (this also more or less equalises the DOF). But then that is demanding a higher level of aberration correction in the Nikon lenses.
Please check out this thread: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=62157.0
The surprising [to me] fact is that simply scaling the same lens design down for use with a smaller format reduces the aberrations at a given f-stop, since there is some dependency of aberrations on actual aperture diameter (entrance pupil size?) rather than aperture ratio. So the general trend of better aberration performance from smaller format lenses when compared at equal, low f-stop is not necessarily all about working harder on lens corrections.
Still, this is not enough to give equal aberration effects at equal aperture size, as needed for equal control of OOF effects and diffraction effects, so large format should have at least a small win with optimal aperture choices in each format.

My proposed rules of thumb are:
- if your needs for DOF require the "sweet spot" aperture ratio or higher in one format, there is little room for a sharpness benefit in a larger format; at larger apertures there might be.
- The sweet-spot aperture ratio gets a bit lower as the format gets smaller, and is often now f/4 or f5.6 for DSLR lenses, not the f/8 often cited for lenses in 35mm format from the film era.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:41:30 am by BJL »
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jduncan

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2012, 07:39:09 am »

It doesn't make sense for Nikon to post sub par images from the camera as samples but it is a possibility.

The smaller pixel pitch of the Nikon is a very possible limitation of this camera. The highly pixel packed sensor puts a lot of pressure on the lenses and the laws of physics may prevent the camera from achieving the theoretical image quality expected. Diffraction will be a big problem beginning to show at larger apertures.

In an interview between Michael Reichmann and Norman Koren they discussed all this and stated that 5 microns is about the tipping point and this camera has a 4.9 micron pixel size.

Theory aside, it would certainly be nice to think we can get medium format quality in a $3300 camera but I will need to see an exponential improvement in the D800 samples before I agree they are getting close.

We shall wait and see. Also for me the DxO mark results will help settle the questions. Manufacture samples are not always the best (minus sigma), maybe because they are working with pre production cameras.

I don't know if the MF companies  will react or not. They did not did so in the face of the Pentax. This machine, if it performs on par to the D3x will be pretty solid for the wedding market.

The other question is Leica, but they appear to live in a different market altogether.


Best regards,
James
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: "sweet-spot" f-stop is naturally smaller in smaller formats
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2012, 05:34:08 pm »

- The sweet-spot aperture ratio gets a bit lower as the format gets smaller, and is often now f/4 or f5.6 for DSLR lenses, not the f/8 often cited for lenses in 35mm format from the film era.

And the sweet spot for MF is probably around f7.1 so all in all you get more DoF with 35mm at the optimal aperture.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: "sweet-spot" f-stop is naturally smaller in smaller formats
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2012, 10:25:31 pm »

Hi Bernard,

How did you arrive at the f/7.1 figure? I'd guess it varies a lot with lenses.

On the other hand, reduced DoF is one of the purported advantages of MF.

A bigger sensor will always have some benefits. It collects more photons and has inherent advantage in MTF as it places less demand on the lens. Also, there are some really good lenses for MF out there.

On the other hand there are a lot of factors, not all measurable. MF is said to have some magical properties, some of those may be nice aliasing artifacts ;-)

Best regards
Erik



And the sweet spot for MF is probably around f7.1 so all in all you get more DoF with 35mm at the optimal aperture.

Cheers,
Bernard

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theguywitha645d

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2012, 10:50:34 pm »

I am not sure where you get the f/7.1 "sweet spot" for MF. Most pixel peepers for the Pentax 645D puts the sweet spot at about f/11 to f/13. (Oddly enough most pixel peepers put the sweet spot at about f/11 regardless of format.)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2012, 12:33:10 am »

Hi,

Regarding the sweet spot, the better the lens the higher the sweet spot. The sweet spot is where the lens is limited by diffraction. So if a lens has best performance at f/11 it is actually not a very good lens. The best MF lenses will reach optimum performance at f/5.6, that probably applies to Schneider and Rodenstock HR Digitars (or what they are called) and also Leica S2 lenses.

I would expect a properly adjusted D800E with a truly excellent lens at f/5.6 to outperform any 40 MB back with any lens at f/11 based on simple theory. How things work out in practice we need to wait and see.

One reason that we often put the sweet spot at f/11 is that it as far you can stop down before diffraction limits resolution on most lenses. But some lenses reach peak much earlier. Smaller formats need better lenses, and many of the better lenses on 4/3 reach their optimum around f/5.6 or even earlier. The diffraction limit is inversely proportional to the f stop, so doubling fstop halves MTF at a given frequency.

Here is a sample showing some practical effects: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/49-dof-in-digital-pictures?start=1

The left column corresponds to diffraction. I would argue that the lens tested performs best at f/5.6, but I freely admit that it is not twice as good at f/5.6 as at f/11.

Best regards
Erik




I am not sure where you get the f/7.1 "sweet spot" for MF. Most pixel peepers for the Pentax 645D puts the sweet spot at about f/11 to f/13. (Oddly enough most pixel peepers put the sweet spot at about f/11 regardless of format.)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 12:48:21 am by ErikKaffehr »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2012, 12:43:34 am »

I am not sure where you get the f/7.1 "sweet spot" for MF. Most pixel peepers for the Pentax 645D puts the sweet spot at about f/11 to f/13. (Oddly enough most pixel peepers put the sweet spot at about f/11 regardless of format.)

That's what I used to see with my D3x whose pixels are about the same size as those of the 645D.

Cheers,
Bernard

hjulenissen

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Re: "sweet-spot" f-stop is naturally smaller in smaller formats
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2012, 02:10:01 am »

A bigger sensor will always have some benefits. It collects more photons and has inherent advantage in MTF as it places less demand on the lens.
Building a a scale 24:1 bridge to 1mm accuracy must be a lot easier than building a full-size bridge to 1mm accuracy.

Building a 4/3 lense to x nm accuracy must be a lot easier than building a MF, LF or astronomy-size lense to x nm accuracy.

I am guessing that economy is a large factor - perhaps more than fundamental physical limits. Even if a 20mm f/0.3 lense for mf43 that sharply resolves 30 megapix is at all possible, it might not make sense to sell it at "MF lense prices".

-h
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: "sweet-spot" f-stop is naturally smaller in smaller formats
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2012, 03:41:38 am »

Hi,

I actually don't think it is possible to buil a lens with as large aperture as f/0.3 because there would be total reflection on glass to air surfaces. That is part of the reason that some microscope lenses are used immersed in fluid.

Best regards
Erik

Even if a 20mm f/0.3 lense for mf43 that sharply resolves 30 megapix is at all possible, it might not make sense to sell it at "MF lense prices".

-h
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ondebanks

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2012, 06:00:34 am »

One reason that we often put the sweet spot at f/11 is that it as far you can stop down before diffraction limits resolution on most lenses. But some lenses reach peak much earlier. Smaller formats need better lenses, and many of the better lenses on 4/3 reach their optimum around f/5.6 or even earlier.

The tendency to claim f/11 as optimal may also be because the centre of the image could be great by f/5.6, but the corners mightn't catch up until f/11, especially with wideangles.

Ray
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BJL

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2012, 09:19:12 am »

A couple of comments and responses.

- AFAIK, there is a hard lower limit of f/0.5 ... but in practice, I doubt we will ever see below the f/0.95 of a few exotic lenses available for M-mount, micro Four Thirds etc.

- My apologies for introducing the simplistic idea of a single "sweet spot" aperture, based on the idea of optimizing resolution (MTF?) for an exactly on-axis, in-focus subject. In other words, mostly or entirely a balancing of diffraction vs spherical aberration. I agree with the idea that the "f/11 MF lens sweet spot" idea is probably a threshold for no visible aberrations, including coma and astigmatism in the corners and edges.

- As I have noted before, simply scaling down a lens design reduces aberrations at equal f-stop. On the other hand, aberrations at equal effective aperture diameter (giving about equal diffraction and OOF effects) are almost certainly lower for the larger format version of the same lens design. For one thing, I believe that chromatic aberration is equal at equal f-stop, but I wonder if one of our telescope/lens optics students can comment on that.

- For us in the 99% (of camera buyers, ranked by budget constraints), the relevant terms of comparison for high quality lenses is sometimes to look at alternatives of roughly equal cost. Here, a smaller format can afford to use materials of higher price per unit weight, say by having more lens elements that use exotic glasses, or more elaborate fabrication procedures. I believe that some aspherical lens elements are molded, requiring cooling in the mold, and that would probably by distinctly easier and cheaper to do in smaller sizes, due to factors like the way cooling time and uniformity scales with size. For example, Olympus seems to be pushing the use of ever more elaborate aspherical designs in m43 lately.

- For extreme close-ups ("macro") there is a fairly clear win for forming and recording a smaller, higher resolution image and then enlarging more later, since in this realm the small apertures needed for adequate DOF control aberrations well. This is a major reason for my preference for smaller pixels and optimizing lens resolution in l/mm rather than l/ph (not necessarily meaning using a smaller sensor though: I can crop.)
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Pingang

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2012, 07:40:00 am »

I think what killed the medium format was not the megapixel count, a D800 is not going to beat the aged 33 or 39 mp backs in control or reasonable light. What makes the DSLR so good is the ability to shoot poor light with high quality, and now, large files.
I think people's desire to try better camera is still there, and the digital back is still the dream, even though it is not for everyone. I think the digital back sales will be dropped, not sure if price will drop that much. The biggest reason for the high price is the small quantity to cover the cost and R&D, sad truth!

Pingang
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MrSmith

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2012, 09:34:48 am »

"the digital back is still the dream"

it's a nightmare when time/budget means you can't have a couple of assistants and 5-10k joules of lighting but need to shoot at 400asa in available light with maybe a couple of flashguns to hand.
  the advantage of handing your client a 100mb+ tiff is lost if there's no ££££ left over after production costs or the file is noisy with subject movement because you couldn't shoot above 125th or above 100asa. a d800 tiff is big enough for most uses (i remember that being said about the p25).

i can see these new 35mm cameras eroding the MF market share even further unless they can either reduce prices or innovate, which is unlikely given the constraints of being subject to the whims of chip suppliers and the small size of the market.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2012, 12:36:05 pm »

DSLR hasn't yet killed MFDB and is not likely to. We have been over this countless times and every time a new hi res DSLR comes out the death of MFDB is predicted.

The same arguments made now were made before digital. MF had a lot of the same disadvantages then as they have now. A new film would come out and people would say we no longer need MF yet it stuck around. Many of the people that predicted the death of MF never used the equipment then and is most likely true for MFDB now.

Thursday I shot in my studio a model jumping high in the air. Client needed a file for a building wrap and for use in catalogue and POS banners. Shot using 6k of Elinchrom lighting at a thousands of a second on a Leaf Aptus12. No moire issues, no trouble with flash sync ant the high shutter speed. Pin sharp image at F11. Happy client and he has booked 5 weeks for next years catalogue. This is not a client that would like me to show up with a camera that cost less than a decent bicycle. Part of it might be placating a client, part of it might be creating barriers to entry to protect my market. I don't care. If leaf show up with a 120 MP camera I place the order.
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MrSmith

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2012, 01:49:59 pm »

i don't think anyone would say 35mm will kill off MF that would be foolish.
they are tools that have their place but those areas are being eroded, when i started in this business i didn't even own a 35mm camera (or dirty-five mil as i called it) and shot on H/blad/5x4/10x8 for the quality now 80% of jobs are shot on 35mm digital and only when huge files are needed is MF used.
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fredjeang

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2012, 02:05:35 pm »

i don't think anyone would say 35mm will kill off MF that would be foolish.
they are tools that have their place but those areas are being eroded, when i started in this business i didn't even own a 35mm camera (or dirty-five mil as i called it) and shot on H/blad/5x4/10x8 for the quality now 80% of jobs are shot on 35mm digital and only when huge files are needed is MF used.

35mm won't kill MF. Red camera probably will. IMHO.


Hey....just teasing.
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uaiomex

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2012, 02:06:50 pm »

I think no 35 camera will kill medium format. However, with every generation dslr's get better in almost any respect making them very attractive, actually very hard to resist. This in consequence, eats big chunks of money out of MF manufacturers for further research. The result, is slowing down advancements and low sales keep prices way too high. For the dslr manufactures is exactly the opposite. Despite the wave of mirrorless camera taking important market shares, dslr's are going to be the kings of technology and sales for the next 10 years, probably a lot more. 30,000 units sales per month for the D800 only. Do the math. That means tons of money for research. Every year the gap in quality between MF and FF will get smaller.
Eduardo
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fredjeang

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2012, 02:16:13 pm »

More seriously, I think that the technology-needs evolution is such that to grow, it will be difficult for smaller structures to follow, being inovative within reasonable cost.

The reality is that today MF, like it or not, beleive it or not, deliver the highest still quality at based isos, and 35mm aren't going to change that tomorrow. Until MF have this advantage, they will have clients and clients ready to pay high prices.

But the technology race of the giants, and specially looking at the latest evolutions, it's clear that the buzz isn't happening in MF and this race could change the game at one point because they go faster and are more agressive and have the structures for. I'm not sure those manufacturers who still think "familly business like" like Hasselblad or Phase have the capacity to engage this technology race, or they'd have to merge with bigger partners and loose control on their own brand.
After all those years, it's amazing that none engineering answers have been adressed not even close to the live-view on CCDs.

I don't think that the kid's generation (future MF potential buyers), used to small fast gear, multi format and multimedia, that have growned with this lenguage since they were in their mon's bellies will be attracted by the 50.000€ MF cameras in the current form to be honest. This will be diluted step by step by its own course into a vintage museum.

  
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 02:48:34 pm by fredjeang »
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george2787

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Re: Are we going to see MF price decreases now that DSLRs reach 36 megapixels?
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2012, 04:26:12 pm »

As one of those kids fred talks about, but with certain respect to MF after having assisted people shooting Hasselblad and played with it 5 minutes I think it's a matter of R+D and sensor size, so we just have to wait until canon, nikon or sony developes a system like pentax or Leica did but with the technology and the R&D power that selling thousands of entry level reflex and point and shoot cameras gives them.

Just imagine, a d3x-1ds like body, CMOS MF size sensor, quick shooting, quick processing, decent screen, leaf shutter, great high ISO (huge pixels) the downside would be new camera system, so it would not be cheap.

Another possible scenario is one big 35mm company buying (for example) hasselblad and push the H system with newer technology.
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