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Author Topic: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints  (Read 10075 times)

pjtn

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Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« on: February 03, 2012, 01:13:29 am »

I want to start producing 40" x 40" square prints of my work and feel that MFD is the way to go. Currently I'm demoing a Pentax 645D but I'm wonder about other options available.

The Mamiya DM22 is available in my country for only $6,900, but will it produce files good enough for 40" square prints?

Then there's the camera to mount it onto. I love cameras like the Hasselblad 500 C/M and Contax 645, are there issues mounting digital backs to older cameras such as these? Otherwise I've found the Mamiya 645 AFD on eBay second hand for around $1500, are these bodies any good?

I've been shooting with a Canon 5D MKII so I'm new to the MFD field.
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pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 01:14:10 am »

I forgot to mention that I'm doing long exposure (2-10 minute) black and white landscape photography.
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ondebanks

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 01:08:57 pm »

I forgot to mention that I'm doing long exposure (2-10 minute) black and white landscape photography.

2-10 minutes massively cuts down your options in MFD. You're left with a Phase One P20+, P21+, P25+, P30+, or P45+ back (on the camera of your choice); or a Pentax 645D. The Pentax 645D has the best and most recent sensor of these. The P30+ and P45+ are the next best. The P25+ and P45+ have a slightly larger sensor, which keeps wideangles wider.

AVOID any Mamiya with a "DMxx" or "DLxx" name. That means it has a Leaf back, which means a Dalsa CCD, which means it cannot do long exposures of the sort you want. The other Phase One backs I didn't mention (P40+, P65+, and all the latest IQ1xx series) all have the same problem. AVOID.

As bodies go, there's nothing wrong with a Mamiya 645AFD; it's what I have. That is, some folks don't like any of the Mamiya AFD/DF line; but within that line, there's really not much separating the 4 incremental versions of the bodies. If you like one, you are amenable to them all. You're a Canon man, and the things that some people bemoan in the Mamiya tend to be the same in a Canon (tiny buttons and menus etc.); in fact the trend to "Canonisation" increased as the series developed, so you'll find the most mechanical levers and switches on the oldest AFD, while the newer AFDIII and DF are the most reliant on tiny buttons. And BTW, a 645AFD body should not cost more than about $500; $650 with film back; $900 complete with 80mm AF lens and back.

If you don't need AF for all your lenses, Mamiya is the best way to go, as there are tonnes of very inexpensive, very fast, and very unusual (fisheye, shift, soft focus, macro, mirror, zoom, tilt-shift bellows) manual focus M645 lenses out there, and most other makes of medium format SLR lenses can be adapted onto it. I think this info could be important to you, as you are clearly aiming at the sub-$10k end of the market.

If your lens tastes are more classic and less specialist, there are Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad 500 series and the Contax 645, and these will take a Phase One back no problem. They also have the option of using a waist-level finder - the Mamiya and Pentax don't. But here are a few caveats. Everything by Contax seems to cost 2-3 times more than everything by Mamiya and Pentax, and Contax are long out of business. Because of the greater crop factor, wideangles are more limited on the Hasselblad 500's. And you need an autofocusing body (Mamiya, Contax, Hasselblad H, Rollei 6008AF) to get focus confirmation with manual focus lenses; focusing a Hasselblad 500 with the precision demanded by a high-megapixel digital back is said by some to be tricky.

So you'll have to weigh things up along the lines of:
- The Pentax has the most desirable sensor, and the best value for money digital package, but does it have the range of lenses you want?
- The Contax has the most desirable body, and some standout lenses, but does it have the range of lenses you want, and can you afford them?
- The Mamiya has the largest and most affordable range of lenses, and a 645AFD is so inexpensive that a backup body is no issue, but how do you feel about the body?
- The old Hasselblads have the most classic look and feel, but the widest rectilinear lens on film will only be a modest wideangle on cropped digital, and is nailing focus with wider apertures a critical feature of your work?

Ray

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Justin Berman

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 01:27:23 pm »

2-10 minutes massively cuts down your options in MFD. You're left with a Phase One P20+, P21+, P25+, P30+, or P45+ back (on the camera of your choice); or a Pentax 645D. The Pentax 645D has the best and most recent sensor of these. The P30+ and P45+ are the next best. The P25+ and P45+ have a slightly larger sensor, which keeps wideangles wider.



Am I nuts? I thought the Pentax could not handle exposures that long. I haven't seen anything past 60 seconds without it getting quite noisy. Can you link to any tests showing longer exposure capability?
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 03:36:15 pm »

Uhhh....how about any B&W film......40 x 40 should be easy....bet you could get an entire hassy set up 500 series for under 1500 USD
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Don Libby

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 04:00:06 pm »

My "normal" print is 40x30 and goes up from there.  I had no trouble doing this with a P45+ and even less with the P65+.  The P45+ will give you longer shutters.  As for a body I use a combination is a tech cam (Cambo WRS) and a Phase DF. 

Don

aaron

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 04:14:19 pm »

Uhhh....how about any B&W film......40 x 40 should be easy....bet you could get an entire hassy set up 500 series for under 1500 USD

Wouldn't a 40 x 40 print from a 6x6 neg be pushing it a bit? - serious question not a knowing observation :)
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 09:18:10 pm »

Wouldn't a 40 x 40 print from a 6x6 neg be pushing it a bit? - serious question not a knowing observation :)
Considering  all of the sensors mentioned will lose 20% of their effective resolution if printing only square as mentioned by the OP (so even a p45+ which is probably the best choice is really only about a 32mp camera when capturing), a 6x6 neg well exposed with good glass and good scans might not be too far off.  Certainly decent IQ if done right, worth considering for the OP based on Dennis's point on the low cost of entry since shooting and developing ones own B&W film is doable.  Add a scanner, maybe a cheap one just to determine which negs to get a drum scan on, although I've seen some pretty good results with even an Epson v700 flatbed scanner on B&W negs.
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pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 09:39:40 pm »

Thank you everyone for the very useful replies! I'm having some trouble doing long exposure tests on the 645D because I don't have any adapters for the 55mm ƒ/2.8 lens for my 10 stop filter. The next problem is that I have no remote that will fit.

I've tried taking photographs in a dark room in my house and holding the shutter down for 2 minutes. Obviously the photographs are soft because of this but it gives a reasonable idea of noise.

One of the reasons I wanted to test this camera was to see the noise in long exposures. I was worried that if it becomes too noisy the Pentax would have no advantage over my 5D MKII. Here's an example at 300% to show the noise:



The Hasselblad 500C/M and film is extremely tempting, I just wonder how long Kodak T Max will be around for. I don't have experience in film either unfortunately. I would consider though limiting my largest size to 30x30" or thereabouts if I can't get the quality in a 40x40". The low cost of startup with film is very tempting too.

I've also heard there's a 36mp Nikon D800 coming without an AA filter. With some Carl Zeiss primes that would be an interesting camera to see but I find it hard to believe it will get anywhere near MF territory.

For interests sake here is a screen shot of the Pentax (left) and Canon (right) uprezzed to 30x30" @ 240ppi and zoomed out to 50% to better mimic what an actual print looks like. The Pentax was shot at ƒ/11 using the 55mm ƒ/2.8, ISO100 and 1/100. The Canon was shot at ƒ/8 using the 24-105mm ƒ/4 at 45mm, ISO100 and 1/310. Both on a tripod:



I've printed this and done a blind comparison with my fiancee. She finds it impossible to tell which is which at a distance but when about 2 feet away she can pick the Pentax.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 03:24:01 am »

Hi,

I second what Wayne says. I have made a really excellent print from 67 Velvia (I think) at 70x100 cm. So film may be an option for your application, especially as it seems you need long exposures. Unfortunately I also see several "buts". To begin with, my experience is that 67 Velvia is not on par with a 24 MP digital DSLR. In some cases it clearly outresolves the digital camera, as the media has higher resolution, but the images are noisy.

Processing may also be an issue. I need to send my films to a pro labb, and it takes a week to get them back.

These two articles sum up my experience of film:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/59-sony-alpha-900-vs-67-analogue-round-2?showall=1

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/16-pentax67velvia-vs-sony-alpha-900

Regarding the Pentax 645D it seems to be an excellent alternative. I have been considering it from time to time, but I don't print that large normally. If you go with the Pentax I'd recommend that you check out http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/Pentax645D/index.html, it costs some money, but he has a lot of good info and has tested a lot of lenses.

Best regards
Erik


Considering  all of the sensors mentioned will lose 20% of their effective resolution if printing only square as mentioned by the OP (so even a p45+ which is probably the best choice is really only about a 32mp camera when capturing), a 6x6 neg well exposed with good glass and good scans might not be too far off.  Certainly decent IQ if done right, worth considering for the OP based on Dennis's point on the low cost of entry since shooting and developing ones own B&W film is doable.  Add a scanner, maybe a cheap one just to determine which negs to get a drum scan on, although I've seen some pretty good results with even an Epson v700 flatbed scanner on B&W negs.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 03:41:25 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 03:37:24 am »

Hi,

To me the right hand picture looks better on screen (24" monitor viewed at 22") probably due to higher image contrast.

I made a 70x100 cm print from an APS-C camera with 10MP. I can see sharpness drop of at 60 cm (two feet) but it seems reasonably sharp at 80-100 cm (three feet).

Much of the visual impression has to do with sharpening and contrast.

The images below are taken from an article base on studio shots from Imaging Resource. The images were cropped and printed at A2 and A0 size (with the crops being A4). The prints were scanned on simple flatbed scanner at 300 PPI. The full article is here:

A2 Sample: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/Pentax645D/A2_print_center.jpg

A0 Sample: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/Pentax645D/A0_print_center.jpg

Best regards
Erik





I've printed this and done a blind comparison with my fiancee. She finds it impossible to tell which is which at a distance but when about 2 feet away she can pick the Pentax.
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pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 08:58:38 pm »

I'm looking at a second hand Hasselblad H3DII39, does anyone know what the long exposure characteristics are of this camera?

I'd also be curious to know what advantages there are of a Hasselblad over a Pentax?
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pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 09:19:25 pm »

Actually I'd be interested in hearing about the Hasselblad H3DII39 as well. I'm finding a few of these second hand at good prices. If it can produce good 40" square prints from long exposures I think I'd be pretty sold on one of these.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 10:26:49 pm »

I'd also be curious to know what advantages there are of a Hasselblad over a Pentax?

Hum... the main ones that come to my mind would be
- thethered shooting,
- the leaf shutter lenses and their T/S adapter,
- a wider lenses line up,
- their gyroscopic AF tuning system (but it might not be relevant for landscape).

On the other hand, the Pentax has significant advantages over the Hassy that are key for landscape shooting:
- weather proofed body,
- weather proofed battery keeping a good battery life in low temperatures,
- dual memory cards,
- better long exposures,
- double tripod screw hole,
- cheaper system,
- better high ISO.

Cheers,
Bernard

pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 06:30:12 am »

I'm glad I've been looking into other options but it seems like the Pentax fits all of my requirements better than the other systems available.

I just looked up the weight of a H3D-39 with 55-110 lens and it's a whopping 3.35kg. Compared with a 645D and 45-85 lens at 2.34kg that's a whole kilo. The extra weight alone might affect the image quality over a long exposure.

I tried a 4 minute exposure today by taping the shutter button down (pretty technical stuff) and putting the camera in a dark room. The result when blown up to 40" x 40" looks more than acceptable, I was quite impressed.

My only worry now is that Pentax Ricoh will call it quits on the 645D line, or even worse, let Marc Newson design the next one...  ;)
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Radu Arama

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 07:30:56 am »

I look forward to the CP+ show later this week where I am positive that Ricoh will reveal stronger interest in the 645 line. If you need the 45-85mm lens you will have an option to replace it next year with the digital optimized 30-70mm.

Regards,
Radu
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pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 07:45:53 am »

I didn't know that a 30-70mm lens was coming out next year, thanks for letting me know. It will be good to see what kind of image quality improvement it will make. If that is the case I might just purchase the 55mm lens for the time being. I assume the 55mm would have better image quality that the 45-85mm being a prime and optimised for digital.
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Radu Arama

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 07:56:14 am »

I didn't know that a 30-70mm lens was coming out next year, thanks for letting me know. It will be good to see what kind of image quality improvement it will make. If that is the case I might just purchase the 55mm lens for the time being. I assume the 55mm would have better image quality that the 45-85mm being a prime and optimised for digital.

No problem! Look here for the still current roadmap:



Probably we will see in a few days time (CP+ is starting on 9th in Japan) the portrait lens in the final form and the 30-70mm zoom in prototype form. I fully expect the tethering software to be announced this week to complement the portrait lens for studio work. Also Ricoh could revamp the lens roadmap if they feel like investing more than Hoya in this field.

About the 55mm the opinions are divided but my opinion is that for the money it is a very good offer. You can read some thought about it (along with 25mm/4 and 150mm/2,8) from a French magazine here: http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1160/moyen-format-pentax-645d-test-terrain-19.html

Regards,
Radu
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:58:30 am by Radu Arama »
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pjtn

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 08:21:13 am »

That will be quite the lens lineup when they're done. Such long telephotos will be very unique in the medium format world. My main disappointment with the 55mm lens is that it feels a little plasticky. Are the other Pentax lenses like that?

I'm just curious, how come the Hasselblad and Phase One systems cost so much more than the Pentax 645D? I'm not seeing any advantages in their systems right now, am I overlooking something?
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ondebanks

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Re: Medium format options for 40" x 40" prints
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 08:21:53 am »

I'm looking at a second hand Hasselblad H3DII39, does anyone know what the long exposure characteristics are of this camera?

I'd also be curious to know what advantages there are of a Hasselblad over a Pentax?

Quick google search:
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1342803/uk_h3dii39_datasheet_v4.pdf

Max 32 seconds - forget it.

It's the same problem with all the H series. Hasselblad grudgingly let the H4D-40 go up to 4 minutes (256 seconds)  - but the sensor is capable of far longer than that; so they either screwed up its thermal/power management (hard to believe, since Imacon introduced DDC "less heat - more power" way back with the iXpress series), or they are treating their customers as babies who cannot be trusted to judge long exposure image noise for themselves.

Ray
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