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Author Topic: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140  (Read 11307 times)

coz

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Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« on: February 02, 2012, 12:59:37 pm »

Hello, I'm thinking of stepping up to MF from a Leica M9 and a 5D2.  This is for rec use. Does anyone have a preference over the S2 vs the IQ140? Do you think buying the S2 is a bad idea since we're 2+ years into the life cycle?  Thanks
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 07:19:34 pm »

Hello, I'm thinking of stepping up to MF from a Leica M9 and a 5D2.  This is for rec use. Does anyone have a preference over the S2 vs the IQ140? Do you think buying the S2 is a bad idea since we're 2+ years into the life cycle?  Thanks

Typically seems like Leica has a longer product life cycle then most companies, I feel like they will need more lenses before the launch of a newer camera (or at least we will hear about new lens launches) and figure out that'll be when the next camera will come out. I looked at the S2 and then decided on the IQ180, also for rec use, but I just wanted the highest mp count and best sensor in the world and thats why I chose the IQ180. Compared to the IQ140, since the sensors are fairly similar at least in terms of MP and size etc, I would have to say choose the S2, because it has some amazing lenses (albeit expensive) and it is the most compact, fairly similar in size to the 1Ds series of cameras. You can read about both cameras (everything I say about the build and functionality of the IQ180 is the same for the IQ140) on my website.

Leica S2: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2011/12/07/leica-store-mayfair-and-leica-s2-in-depth-review-2/

PhaseOne 645DF and IQ180: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2012/01/14/phaseone-iq180-a-love-story/
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Leica / Nikon / Hasselblad / Mamiya ~ Proud IQ180 owner

Kagetsu

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 07:26:46 pm »

For me the killer was the promise of central shutter lenses, but the failure to deliver them.
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jduncan

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 08:44:18 pm »

Hello, I'm thinking of stepping up to MF from a Leica M9 and a 5D2.  This is for rec use. Does anyone have a preference over the S2 vs the IQ140? Do you think buying the S2 is a bad idea since we're 2+ years into the life cycle?  Thanks

No sure what is REC use. But have you need for tethering?  For me that is one of the stronger points of MF in general.
By example the combination of a Hasselblad, the macro lens  and a computer is a very powerful one.

This is a video that show the experience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v390U5xZFGc

My guess is that you can do something similar with the Phase one, but not with the Leica.

Best regards,

James


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craigrudlin

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 09:14:46 pm »

First, you have to rent or borrow each and see whether their ergonomics "fit" for you.  They are very different.
I found the Phase to be awkward, heavy, and concluded that outside a studio, it was not "comfortable" to use.
Granted, I moved from a Nikon DSLR.

Second, IF you like manual focusing, then the Leica wins without question.  With the phase, if you want manual
focus, even if just "fine tuning" the auto focus, you have to disengage a clutch before turning the focusing ring.
Ridiculous.  You can just turn the ring anytime with the Leica, and equally importantly, the "throw" of the ring
allows very, very fine adjustments.

Third, there is a large difference in the character or "draw" of the phase vs. leica lenses.  The images just look
different.  This is not a "one is better than the other" comment.  They are simply different.  You have to choose
which appearance you like or which "draw" complements your subjects and style of photography.  One of the
main reasons I moved to MF was for the three dimensionality of the tonal contrast, the so called micro-contrast,
and this certainly appears different between the two lenses.  The bokeh is different as well.

Fourth, do you need CS lenses?  Leica is promising them, but they are not yet delivered.

Fifth, do you like Phase One's Capture One software.  You are pretty much "locked into" this with the phase system.
Leica distributes Lightroom.  Again, it is not necessarily one is better than the other.  But, they are certainly very different.
For example, if you like Nik software's filters, then Lightroom is a much better choice.

Both can be tethered.

Sixth, do you want the option to use a technical or view camera.  If so, you have to go with the phase one since it is a
modular system.

Hope this helps.
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coz

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 07:34:48 am »

Thanks for all the comments a lot to think over. Brian great website thanks for posting.  I really want the S2 with the Phase One sensor inside!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 08:33:29 am »

Have you considered the Pentax 645D?

Unless you need to shoot thethered, it seems to offer more for a lot less money.

Cheers,
Bernard

coz

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 10:44:23 am »

I did but isn't that 14bit? Isn't that missing the point of switching to MF?
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nightfire

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 11:06:32 am »

Fifth, do you like Phase One's Capture One software.  You are pretty much "locked into" this with the phase system.
Leica distributes Lightroom.  Again, it is not necessarily one is better than the other.  But, they are certainly very different.
For example, if you like Nik software's filters, then Lightroom is a much better choice.

Why "locked into"? No need to use Capture One just because one has a Phase One back; Lightroom works perfectly fine for the entire workflow too.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 11:32:18 am »

I did but isn't that 14bit? Isn't that missing the point of switching to MF?

16 bits was proven time and again to bring no value compared to 14 bits.

None of the backs claiming 16 bits support actually have more than 13 bits of actual data.

Cheers,
Bernard

coz

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 11:45:02 am »

I have not heard that thanks for the info. I really don't need the resolution so if that's the case I don't think I would move to MF.
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Gigi

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 01:00:05 pm »

There's more to the switch than the "bits" discussion. Try a couple of cameras, check out the files. Its addictive: once you see it, you don't go back!
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Geoff

jsiva

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 01:37:49 pm »

I went through a similar process and ended up with a Phase DF and Leaf Aptus 12.  I was leaning towards Leica as I loved my M9, but in the end, I figured if I was going to live with all the idiosyncrosies of MF, then I may as well go with the one that offered me the best IQ.  From a sensor size and resolution perspective, the choice I made was the right one.  As for the lenses, the SK LS lenses are just as good as any of the Leica lenses I have used (on the M, I had the latest and fastest lenses available).  On the S2, line, the lenses do feel nicer and somehwat better constructed, but they are also twice as expensive.

One complaint I have is the lack of a top notch wide beyond 55mm on the Phase.  However, I am sue Phase will bring something out soon, and of course, you always have the option of the tech Camera route.

As for the discussion of 14bit vs 16bits, I agree with Geoffreyg above.  I would focus on the end result.  Compare prints from a DSLR and MF and see the difference for your self.  Also, play with the files in LR or C1.  You will be quite surprised.  My reference is from 1DS3/5DII/M9 files vs. the Leaf 12 files.

Second, IF you like manual focusing, then the Leica wins without question.  With the phase, if you want manual
focus, even if just "fine tuning" the auto focus, you have to disengage a clutch before turning the focusing ring.
Ridiculous.  You can just turn the ring anytime with the Leica, and equally importantly, the "throw" of the ring
allows very, very fine adjustments.

This is not entirely accurate.  Yes there is an AF clutch on/off, but you can still fine tune the focus.  You need to move the AF off the shutter button to the rear function button.  Then you use AF and use the lens barrel to fine tune,then release the shutter.  I like my AF decoupled from the shutter so this was never an issue for me.

Fifth, do you like Phase One's Capture One software.  You are pretty much "locked into" this with the phase system.
Leica distributes Lightroom.  Again, it is not necessarily one is better than the other.  But, they are certainly very different.
For example, if you like Nik software's filters, then Lightroom is a much better choice.


While I feel C1Pro is superior to lightroom in several ways, there is nothing stopping you from using LR with IQ files.  Having said this, I actually see this as weakness.  Both Phase and Hasselblad have a tightly intergrated application and workflow, if you choose to use it.  Leica does not.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:41:21 pm by jsiva »
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noobienatalie

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 05:48:51 pm »

I am currently looking at these as well but I'm worried the resolution might not be enough for shooting jewelry (my main focus) because I'm coming from a Canon 5D II and it's just not as sharp as I'd like.   I'd love to get anyone's thoughts on the resolution of these two!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 05:54:59 pm by noobienatalie »
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lance_schad

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 06:37:26 pm »

First, you have to rent or borrow each and see whether their ergonomics "fit" for you. 

I agree with you Craig that it is a good idea to try the camera systems out for yourself to see which fits your needs best.

We offer a few different ways that perspective clients can evaluate the Phase One,Mamiya/Leaf and lenses prior to making a purchase decision. One popular way is our 'try before you buy program' which allows you to rent a system for a trip or project and if you like it and decide to purchase it we will credit the rental fees towards your purchase. We also offer hands on demonstrations at our locations as well, if you are not local we do also ship the equipment as well.

Lance
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Gary Ferguson

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 09:18:49 am »

One complaint I have is the lack of a top notch wide beyond 55mm on the Phase.  However, I am sue Phase will bring something out soon, and of course, you always have the option of the tech Camera route.

I use the Phase 28mm, 45mm, and 55mm lenses (and a rare 55mm Schneider T&S in a Mamiya mount) alongside Rodenstock W lenses. I don't see any serious deficiencies in the Mamiya/Phase wide angle optics, in fact I'd be hard pressed to point to differences in final prints between Rodenstock and Mamiya/Phase One derived images.
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StuartR

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 07:01:33 pm »

I wound up with an S2 for my work, as it fit the bill much better than Phase or Hasselblad, but that's just for me. There is no general right answer to these questions, for some a camera like the S2 will make a lot more sense, for others, the Phase. For example, if I were going to shoot jewelry, I would say get a phase back and a view camera. That would be a much better solution than the Leica in the sense that you would have full perspective controls, macro as close as you want, and some sort of live view. If you wanted a travel or landscape camera, I would say the S2 (at least for me) -- the lenses are extremely good, it is weather sealed, the battery lasts forever and it is nicer ergonomically (to me, anyway).

One important consideration if you are using this for your own enjoyment and recreation is how it fits in to your workflow. Since you already have an M9, you will have no trouble adapting to the S2 files. They are quite similar to those of the M9, only with greater resolution and dynamic range. If you already use Lightroom, you are up and running with no difficulty. The S2 files tend to be spectacular right out of the camera, so there is not much fuss getting them to where you want to be.

If you are not already used to Capture One, it will take you a bit to get into the swing of it. Then you can either start using it for your M9 and 5D2 files as well, or you will need to operate separate workflows for each different camera. Personally, I am very happy that I can stick to Lightroom! I find it a much more appealing editor, and it integrates natively with photoshop. Just one less thing to worry about.

Overall, I have been very impressed with the S2. The lenses are the best I have ever used in any system, bar none (and I have pretty much used them all...literally...Canon, Nikon, Leica, Contax, Zeiss (Hasselblad, ZM, ZF, Rollei 6000), Schneider (Rollei 6000, LF), Fuji, Konica, Mamiya (Mamiya 7) etc etc). I have never seen a combination of speed, sharpness, image character (bokeh, je ne sais quoi) and freedom from aberrations like I have seen from the S lenes...they are big and heavy, but the least of your worries in any shooting situation. This is not to say that the Phase lenses are bad, very far from it. I don't think they will hold you back at all, but I also don't think they have that same knock your socks of effect either. The camera body itself is very nicely laid out in terms of the shutter release, grip, viewfinder and screen. I have to admit I dislike the 4 button interface...would have preferred it to be the same as the M9. But with the custom functions it is easy to set it up so that you can quickly change the things you need to change, and otherwise it just disappears in the hand.

On an image quality standpoint, I run a custom printing service, and the S2 essentially maxes out the printer. I use an Epson 9900, and at 1mX1.5m it still looks great. I am sure 80mp would give you more fine detail, but it is already so good, that I imagine there are very few times where this increase in detail would make a real difference in the end result. Again, your conclusions might be different. For me, the lenses, ergonomics and overall experience of using the S2 means I would not trade it for an IQ 180 and phase set up.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 07:03:29 pm by stuartr »
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bdosserman

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 02:52:48 pm »

16 bits was proven time and again to bring no value compared to 14 bits.

None of the backs claiming 16 bits support actually have more than 13 bits of actual data.

For me bit depth is not the main point of switching to MF, but I'm curious about this nonetheless. Can you give me some links? And how do you determine that a camera has only 13 bits of actual data?

Thanks,

Brian
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Pingang

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Re: Leica S2 vs Phase IQ140
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2012, 10:37:14 pm »

I wound up with an S2 for my work, as it fit the bill much better than Phase or Hasselblad, but that's just for me. There is no general right answer to these questions, for some a camera like the S2 will make a lot more sense, for others, the Phase. For example, if I were going to shoot jewelry, I would say get a phase back and a view camera. That would be a much better solution than the Leica in the sense that you would have full perspective controls, macro as close as you want, and some sort of live view. If you wanted a travel or landscape camera, I would say the S2 (at least for me) -- the lenses are extremely good, it is weather sealed, the battery lasts forever and it is nicer ergonomically (to me, anyway).

One important consideration if you are using this for your own enjoyment and recreation is how it fits in to your workflow. Since you already have an M9, you will have no trouble adapting to the S2 files. They are quite similar to those of the M9, only with greater resolution and dynamic range. If you already use Lightroom, you are up and running with no difficulty. The S2 files tend to be spectacular right out of the camera, so there is not much fuss getting them to where you want to be.

If you are not already used to Capture One, it will take you a bit to get into the swing of it. Then you can either start using it for your M9 and 5D2 files as well, or you will need to operate separate workflows for each different camera. Personally, I am very happy that I can stick to Lightroom! I find it a much more appealing editor, and it integrates natively with photoshop. Just one less thing to worry about.

Overall, I have been very impressed with the S2. The lenses are the best I have ever used in any system, bar none (and I have pretty much used them all...literally...Canon, Nikon, Leica, Contax, Zeiss (Hasselblad, ZM, ZF, Rollei 6000), Schneider (Rollei 6000, LF), Fuji, Konica, Mamiya (Mamiya 7) etc etc). I have never seen a combination of speed, sharpness, image character (bokeh, je ne sais quoi) and freedom from aberrations like I have seen from the S lenes...they are big and heavy, but the least of your worries in any shooting situation. This is not to say that the Phase lenses are bad, very far from it. I don't think they will hold you back at all, but I also don't think they have that same knock your socks of effect either. The camera body itself is very nicely laid out in terms of the shutter release, grip, viewfinder and screen. I have to admit I dislike the 4 button interface...would have preferred it to be the same as the M9. But with the custom functions it is easy to set it up so that you can quickly change the things you need to change, and otherwise it just disappears in the hand.

On an image quality standpoint, I run a custom printing service, and the S2 essentially maxes out the printer. I use an Epson 9900, and at 1mX1.5m it still looks great. I am sure 80mp would give you more fine detail, but it is already so good, that I imagine there are very few times where this increase in detail would make a real difference in the end result. Again, your conclusions might be different. For me, the lenses, ergonomics and overall experience of using the S2 means I would not trade it for an IQ 180 and phase set up.

Totally agreed. The S2 will most likely be in your hand much more often than something with IQ140, and that make itself a good choice. No camera is designed to meet everyone's eventual demand, but if you need a camera in hand to shoot, I did find my P65+ rest most of the time while I making good shots with 5D2, not because 5D2 is absolutely better than P65+ in image terms but it is simply less practical to shoot everything with P65+ along - although I knew someone actually did it. What mattered most is if you have a (any) camera on hand to shoot, not a matter of what is best. An i-Phone will be the king when no one else around, and that made it best.
After all, when we talk about photography, it is not just in studio, a great location, hours or days production. It is something most people in the world involved, from kitchen to garage to South Pole, and on the moon, in the space.

Pingang
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