Mounting Canvas to Gator - Use Acid Free?

[Johnny_Boy]

I am going to give mounting canvas on Gator a try rather than using the stretch bars.

I have two options:
1. Use Gator foam (regular) with Miracle Muck
2. Use acid free Gator with Laminall, which is pH neutral
3. (Thought about using self-stick Gator, but I am not sure if that adhesive will stay stuck to the canvas for long)

Does anyone know for sure if #2 option would last much longer than #1 option? What are you guys using for this process? Would the foams disintegrate after about 10 years?

[Wayne Fox]

we use polymount dry mount film to adhere canvas to gator.  we just received our 54" laminator, so we're looking at adhesives that we can use to cold mount it now.

[mstevensphoto]

it's so easy to do with miracle muck I've given up looking for other ways to accomplish the same thing.

[bill t.]

I must agree that mounting with Muck or Lamin-All is just too easy.  But be sure to use Gator or Mighty Core, regular foam core will warp like crazy.

Foam boards seem to have very good lifetimes, well into many decades.  They have been used as backing in normal framing for a long time.  They can outgas so they're not squeeky-clean archival.  But please consider that mounted canvas is coated with glue on the backside and canvas coating on the front, so it's basically isolated from the surrounding environment which includes humidity and human respiratory products, which I have to think is a good thing.  Even an archivally mounted, hinged print in a regular frame is more subject to indoor contaminants than a glued, coated canvas.

The squeeze rollers on laminators can be very handy for gluing down canvas, especially when working alone with canvas that is 36" or larger on the small dimension.  But it's enough to meticulously press down the prints with a cotton-gloved hand (using wiping motions) or with a hand held roller.  Be careful not to create ripple down into the substrate by pressing too hard with hand held rollers, or by pinching too hard with laminator rollers.

[douvidl]

Bill T.
I am a novice with canvas and would like to try mounting it to some foam core.  Could you recommend a brand of core, the glue and any tips for applying the glue. I plan on an 11 x 17in canvas. 
I appreciate you efforts.
DavidM

[bill t.]

Hi David.  There's a ton of stuff on LuLa about mounting canvas, just do searches like "canvas mount muck" etc.

But just a quick summary...

If you glue canvas to regular white fomecore, it will warp like crazy and never straighten out.  You should mount to 3/16 Gator Board or Mighty Core.  For smaller prints, it is probably OK to mount to something like Masonite, which is dirt cheap down at Lowes, or which you can buy in standard sized sheets at many art supply stores.  If you have a wholesale distributor near you like Piedmont Plastics you can sometimes find small pieces of Gator in the scrap bin, they may just give it to you.  Otherwise 3/16 Gator costs $43 per 4 x 8 foot sheet, and is worth it.  Mighty Core is a little cheaper.

If you want to mount an 11 x 17 print, cut the Gator to 10.75 x 19.  Tape the print to the Gator on one of the 11" sides so the print slightly overhangs the Gator on the other three sides.  The overhang will help keep glue from getting onto the surface of the print.

Roll the print up on a tube.  Put down a coat of Miracle Muck or Lamin-All glue on to the Gator with a roller.  I buy 9" wide x 3/16 foam rollers on ebay for really cheap in 168 piece boxes, thin foam is better than thick foam or anything else.  For the 11 x 17 you will need just a "dollop" of glue.  But for larger prints you should pre-measure about 0.0025 ounces of glue for every square inch of glued canvas.  Plus keep in mind that the roller will soak up another 1.5 to 3 ounces, so you need a little more glue if you are starting with a dry roller.  Roll the glue onto the Gator starting from the center and working towards the edges, this avoids getting big glue spills down the sides of the Gator.  If you feel you have just simply too much glue down on the gator, roll a swatch on a scrap surface while pressing hard, that will remove and 1 ounce of glue.  Also have the Muck bottle handy if you think you need a little more glue.  Get all the rolling done in less than 2 minutes, if you can.

Roll out the canvas on the Gator without applying too much tug, but just a little.  Don't gouge the print with your fingernails!  Wipe the (previously coated) print down with a cotton gloved hand, just regular cheap gardening cotton gloves will do, but no little rubber bumps please.  Or you can use a soft burnishing roller, but if you press too hard you'll get ripples.  Trim the edges with a utility knife.  Wipe away any excess glue with a wet paper towel.  Carefully check the surface of the print for glue contamination, wipe away with a clean wet paper.  But if you let glue totally dry on the surface of the print, you must recoat.

That's it!  Piece o' cake.  I can do a bazillion of these per hour with my eyes closed with zero mistakes.

[Craig Murphy]

10.75 inch piece of gator for 11x17 print?  You would no longer have an 11x17 print.  Correct?

[bill t.]

Unless you want glue on the surface.  But one can always go for the full 11" or even more if one is careful.  But for maximum sanity, no bordless prints allowed! 

[Luca Ragogna]

I can't find Lamin-All in Canada and the shipping for Miracle Muck is ridiculous. Any have a source in the great white north for an "archival" PVA glue? Can I just use a bookbinders glue?

[Johnny_Boy]

BTW, bill, I finally tried out rolling by hands using the tube method. It works pretty well, but the problem that I had were:
1. Need to keep the canvas tightly rolled on to the tube, to make it roll out evenly while unrolling
2. It is really hard to get the canvas on straight on the board

Basically even if you are off by half degree at the beginning, the canvas will mounted skewed. I think I will need to tape down the canvas to the gator first to align it, like you described above, and then apply glue and just roll the canvas back out? I did not make the Gator longer on one side as you described above (I cut to the final size), so I will make that change next. BTW, what do you use to cut the canvas and gator on that fourth side? Utility knife? Wait until it is dry before cutting?

In terms of archival Gator, it looks like they sell archival foam core, but I am not sure if it is Gator. But it was made by the same company as the Gator board but not labeled as Gator. Also the archival foam core does not come in 4'x8' size, so only for small items. I think I am going to stick with Gator Board or Might Core.

[dgberg]

I use Miracle Muck and it rolls so easy on to Gatorboard. Make your print 1/2" bigger both directions.
Lay your print on the Gator nothing fancy required as you can just reposition it to square. Brayer it down.
Flip over and trim your overlapping print with a utility knife.
This is probably the easiest,quickest and cheapest way to mount canvas. 10 minutes and done.

[langier]

Been using the heat-activated coated foamboard for the past year for more than 600 large canvas prints. It's been doing the job well and is about as easy as it gets for dry mounting.

[Kanvas Keepsakes]

How do you achieve the wrap look on the edges like 3/4" or 1.5" with mighty core?  I'm stretching on wood but saw a website where they sell the same looking wraps using mighty core.  Anyone know how this is done?
This is what I mean http://redipix.com/MountsOverview.php
The gallery wrap elite

[bill t.]

I have only glue-style gallery wrapped a few times.  Main thing is, be sure to sand the edges of the substrate so the canvas can slide around the bends, without snagging.  Doesn't take much, but burrs can be a nuisance if they're present.

What I did was first mount the print to the face of of the Gator.  Then I attached a 1x4 inch pine board to the ends of the canvas, one side a a time so the board would act as an even gripping/tensioning device.  Basically wrap the dry canvas around the back of the print, press the edge down onto 1/2 of the width of a piece of masking tape so the tape is facing up relative to the back surface of the Gator.  Press the pine board on to the exposed half of the tape and burnish the tape down.  Now you've got a handle that will pull one entire side of the canvas at once.  Put glue on the sides and back of the Gator and fold the canvas around.  Once again, very important that the back of the Gator be sanded just a little so the Gator can slide around the edge.  Definitely takes a little practice, plan to the mess up the first one.  Won't got into the tricky cuts you need to make to get good gallery corners, you can find several examples of that on youtube.

One thing is that there is a tendency to get a little raised lip just inside the front and back edges when you do this.  Best to let the initial front-surface glue dry a few hours before you wrap so the canvas there is held strongly enough just inside the front edge to avoid pulling up that darned lip.

**********

One thing about dry mounting is that you might not need the special anti-warp properties of Gator if you do that, MAYBE just regular fomecore is OK.  Definitely check a sample piece but I suspect it would be enough to simply lay some books or something flat over the just-mounted canvas immediately out of the press so it won't develop a warp.  But I'm just a little wary of of the rather thin drymount coatings on pre-applied fomecore, it doesn't strike me that there is enough thickness there to bond into the heavy texture on the back of canvas.  The common framing wisdom on this subject is to use two thicknesses of adhesive-only tissue like Fusion 4000 or one of its many knock off's to really grab into the canvas.  Maybe just lay one thickness of Fusion 4000 over a pre-applied board or something.  Since it is all adhesive and no paper, you can be very free-form with Fusion without worrying about piling it at overlaps and such, it will all even out in the press.  But considering the cost of the tissue and the hot, sweaty, finger-toasting tedium of dry mounting, I'm sticking with glue because it is so insanely easy.

And yes Gator is not really archival in itself, since formaldehyde infusion is one of the things that gives it its special properties.  However, consider that the glue itself establishes what framers call a "barrier" that effectively isolates the print from the board.  And the coating does it for the other side of the print.  While there will certainly be a little bit of chemistry happening between the wet glue and the canvas, as soon as the glue dries the reactions will pretty much stop in their tracks with the reaction byproducts acting as a further barrier.  Just ask any industrial chemist.  I have rag silver prints that were glue mounted 30 and 40 years ago, they are still down flat with no indications of contamination from the Masonite substrate which also contains formaldehyde and such.

[Rocco Penny]

can't add much to the conversation,
I have a seal drymount press and gator and foamcore(several different types/thickness) have tried gallery wraps etc.

By far the best long term results for me is the gator/glueing method described above.
That whole don't press too hard thing cant be stressed enough.
An even profile without warps or long press lines, or  other anomalies from flat is a trick dismissed by most,
but the difference between success and failure is a funny pattern pressed onto the surface by using long arcs of your hand instead of flat and even manipulation.
My biggest challenge is making the substrate/\ and \/photo key with a perfectly flat profile.
Then I like to goop it up with finish to provide just the right amount of bumpiness
I quit using the press unless the piece fits whole,
but in the right hands I think it could be superior.
Gluing is messy and laborious and dry mount is neat
Although watching Bill do it once would probably change my mind

[Craig Murphy]

I have found that Miracle Muck dries pretty damn fast.  Not much time to mess/reposition with it. 

[Johnny_Boy]

BTW, for gator mounted canvas, do I have to worry about the relative humidity of the room and of the art work?

I understand that the stretched canvas would react to overall change of relative humidity and tighten and  loosen across the face. With gator mounted, I am assuming it won't move. Would that put tension on the glue and the gator and cause issues later on?

[Ian99]

OK, Dan Berg and Bill T are the gurus around here and I have followed their advice and have never gone wrong because of it.
However I live in Canada and Miracle Muck is just not available here, so I started to investigate what MM really is and any alternatives that are available.

Firstly, I believe that MM is a great product, but according to an old MSDS sheet (no longer available on the web) it is a modified poly vinyl acetate/water suspension with a pH of 5.5. That means it is a “white glue”. Raphael is a relatively small company, and although they may well have a custom formulation of a PVA glue, they have probably not invented a brand new adhesive technology.

More recently, the web shows that Raphael claims it to be an “ethylene vinyl acetate copolymer”. OK big deal, that releases a little bit more information about MM. Any chemist will tell you that it is still a PVA type glue.

So , being forced by circumstance to use whatever PVA glue is available to me, I went to the local Home Depot and bought a large container of their generic “white glue” and diluted it 10-15% with warm water. When I roll it on, it works fine, giving you a short window to slide the canvas around on the board. Adhesion is good and it dries quickly.

I even tested it after two weeks, and with some difficulty, I was able to pull the canvas off the Gatorboard, damaging neither piece. Remember that any time you glue a piece of artwork onto a substrate you have lost any claim to being “archival”, whatever that really means.

Generic Home Depot/Lowes white glue has a pH of around 6.0 so is close to neutral. The other PVA glues that are designed for outdoor or wet areas are often a brown color and have a pH of 5.0 or less and should be avoided.

This is offered as a description of my experience and not a recommendation for action, plus any other legal BS.

[bill t.]

Well this is timely!

I was just last Tuesday at the Frank's Fabrics booth at a picture-framing trade show.  The guy was demonstrating applying linen to various substrates using the Frank's house-brand of PVA fabric glue and he mentioned that it was by design THICKER than typical PVA glues so that it could be easily applied to vertical surfaces and offer a lot of "tooth" to fabric textures.  So, yes it's PVA, but I will WAG with possibly extra long polymers suitable for fabric applications.

My main motivation, however, is that the price I pay for a box of 4, 1 gallon jugs of Muck makes it the cheapest PVA glue I can readily access.  And talking to the very nice order-taking lady at Raphael's is always a pleasure.

I used to use Elmer's White Glue back in the day to mount large rag paper prints on Masonite.  Same-same PVA.

Bottom line, the rip-it-apart test is the final judge for any kind of glue joint, and I usually pull off some Gator laminate with Muck-mounted canvas where I only used hand pressure in the glue-down phase.  Which may mean that a little less adhesion would still be adequate.  So I think I would feel comfortable with generic PVA.

PS, I don't like diluting Muck because that seems to make it dry too fast during the Gator-coating process.

Have also noted that PVA glues thicken up pretty fast if you leave the cap off the bottle for even an hour or so.  By the time I get to the bottom of a bottle of Muck it is definitely thicker than when I started, and I do shake it up a bit at the beginning of each session.  So if you ever feel the need for thicker PVA, maybe that's the way.