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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 1092805 times)

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1441 on: November 20, 2013, 12:35:24 pm »

Thanks iladi.   Feels like we're getting warmer.  My replacement carts should be here any day now, then it's time to blow up this 9900!

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1442 on: November 20, 2013, 03:16:55 pm »

If anyone is interested I put a ton of microscopic images with descriptions of our piezoelectric heads on the myx900 site HERE

BobDavid

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1443 on: November 24, 2013, 11:07:14 pm »

Great video.
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davidh202

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1444 on: November 25, 2013, 11:04:19 pm »

WTF!
He is using a Roland solvent printer.
This has no relationship to an Epson Pigment Inkjet.

aren't we going around in circles here Eric?
On the very first pages of this thread you stated that buying refillable carts and trying to flush the head was a total waste of money and time!
  
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1445 on: November 26, 2013, 12:23:59 pm »

Yes David, I am going in circles.  Again.  Which is kind of scary, yet also comforting.  I race motorcycles after all, we do lots of circles.

If you think of this in a negative way I could be circling the drain on my way down it.  On the positive side however I could be circling in on this like a pack of wolves would a wounded Caribou. 

It is true, two years ago I said cleaning carts were a waste of time.  That was my experience at the time, and I shared it.  I have learned since then, after endless hours exploring and experimenting, that cleaning an X900 head in your hands/with syringes/soaking them/subjecting them to ultrasonic cleanings/pushing fluid through them/sucking fluid from them - it's all pretty dangerous business.  These heads are microscopically fragile.  My first experience with cleaning carts was limited to that source's cleaning fluids.  Never did I try Epson's RED filled to the top of every cart, never did I try "initial fills" (if you remember I only bought four carts when I tried them, and only did pairs cleanings). 

So yes, David.  WTF!   

I wonder if you can imagine how I feel by now...


...Having said all that I didn't open this page to respond, I opened it to post a progress report.  The head I have in my 9900 right now is a head donated to the cause by D. Kelly, in Australia.  PK channel was basically dead.  I have performed 3 "initial fills" with RED, no change.  I have performed SS cleanings, pairs cleanings, printed full pages of black.  Nothing changed until I changed fluids.  Out with the RED, in with a fluid which was suggested on this forum, in this thread, well over a year ago.  I never talked about it but I did order, from 3M, the industrial kitchen cleaning fluid which was talked about here.  I never used it, until yesterday when my RED ran out.  It is also expensive, like RED, but it comes super concentrated.  I think this half gallon makes 123 gallons total.  So I diluted it, filled the carts, and went back at this head through the menu systems again.  This morning I can finally confirm the one mystery which has been on my mind for-ever.  Is a terminal clog actually a clog at all, or is it simply a damaged head?

The terminal clogs in D. Kelly's X900 head are, slowly, clearing.  Used to be 60% of the nozzles were gone.  Now it's 40%. 

Still can't say whether it's the drain I am circling, or the prey.  But we're definitely getting closer to one or the other.

iladi

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1446 on: November 26, 2013, 03:38:34 pm »

@davidh202:

Roland solvent printers use the same printheads as epson waterbased printers.
The solvent ink is also a pigment ink. The diference is the carier of the pigments. For your epson the carier is water, for a roland is a solvent.

They are not so different as one may think. Printing basics are the same, so we can draw conclusions based on other.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 03:43:34 pm by iladi »
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1447 on: November 30, 2013, 11:52:06 pm »

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST...


Well I did it again.  FATAL ERROR MESSAGE 1A39 flashes over a blood red background in the 99 hundred's LCD.  So much promise, so much hope, more possibly this time than ever before - all crumble to the floor in ashes before me.  Or maybe I should say, "In steam".

WTF you ask?  Where does steam come from?  Don't be silly, it comes from Locomotives.




After too many initial fills to count, plus cleanings on top of cleanings - some while standing on one foot, others while dressed in an Indian rain dance outfit I keep only for special occasions - I decided once again to get aggressive.  What's wrong with me you might ask?  Why always in the end am I holding a bloody hammer at my side wearing an innocent look of guilt?  Because after all I am a carpenter.  Do remember this.

You might think after as many initial fills and cleanings as I performed on this particular head (300ml carts worth of cleaning fluid) that there would be no ink left inside the chambers anymore.  I mean if nothing else, at least we should assume this, right?  

Wrong...

The PK channel in this head cleared to 40% clogged then never improved.  Wasn't budging.  What I should have done at this point was give up, then perform an autopsy so we could finally understand what in the love of hell an unclearable clog actually is.  But I didn't do that did I.  Nope, I kept trying to clear it.  How you ask?  This is where the Locomotive comes in.

I boiled distilled water until a subtle stream of steam drew out from the spout of my wife's favorite flowered tea pot.  (say that ten times fast)  Then I held said dead head just out of harms way, or so I thought, until that subtle stream of steam drew from hidden chambers inside secret spaces - dried up crusty ink from prints long since past.  Out from those tiny microscopic nozzle passages poured the answers to our troubles.  It's ink.  The clogs indeed are ink, I believe.  And nothing gets them out without destroying the tiny internals they hold entombed in an ink frozen state of piezo-pompeii.  

...at least nothing that we know of.  

Today..

I will perform an autopsy but for sure I will find only ruins.  

« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 11:57:33 pm by Eric Gulbransen »
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Eric Gulbransen

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THE END
« Reply #1448 on: December 12, 2013, 02:02:47 am »

Tonight it ends.  My genius buddy Steve came over.  Been a while since he's been in on this.  As he walked in he said, "Dude, do you know it's been a year since you started that thread on Luminous Landscape?"  I answered, "Actually it's been two..."

Used to be Steve and I did everything on this journey together, but then he got a girl - game over I've been solo on this ever since.  Until tonight.  I told Steve a week ago it was time we wrap this up, and so we did.  Tonight we sacrificed a perfectly good, fully functional, thoroughly cleaned/rinse/soaked & initial filled until it's eyes watered X900 printhead.  Consistent nozzle patterns, full pages of ink, 100% working head - minus almost half of the PK channel.  Typical terminal clog story, cleared up fine until it got to a specific point - then it never budged a millimeter further. 

We traced the lines, we drew maps, we zeroed in on ink's path through the nipple board, into the chambers and finally out the nozzles.  Once we knew exactly which side of what chamber housed the PK bank we carefully took the head apart and raised it up to the microscope.  Fascinating what we saw.

Since this thing began I have pictured caked up nozzles, ink bound chambers, stubborn ice burg sized ink clots jammed up against tiny piezoelectric nozzles and the like.  For sure, in my heart I have felt our clogs are clearable.  But I have also known, even feared, that terminal clogs are not clogs at all.  They may instead be damaged nozzles, chambers, walls or whatever else might be possible.  And I have known, all along, that taking apart a working head would reveal which of the two was our destiny.


I feel bad about this actually.  Even sorry.  Rather than finding impossibly stubborn caked up ink inside the specific chamber walls in question, we found absolutely nothing.  I mean this X900 printhead is not only impeccably clean inside, but it's microscopically clean.  There is not a single trace of ink inside any part of the piezoboard.  Not one chamber wall is damaged.  Not, one.  There's no dust, no cracks, not one inconsistency in the entire thing.  These nozzles are perfect in every way compared to their properly firing counterparts just a chamber wall away.  The whole bank is perfect, just half of it doesn't fire anymore.


Feel free to draw from this experience any conclusions you deem appropriate.  To me, and I am wrong far more often than I am right, we have not been fighting clogs at all.  We've been fighting ghosts.  I don't know what it is that does it but something destroys an X900 nozzle.  Maybe it's age but I doubt it.  Perhaps it's a characteristic of piezoelectrics - one wall can only take so much heat, or so much charge, or so much vibration - and then it is fried.  Either way it is confirmed, finally, in my opinion and under my microscope - a terminal clog is not a terminal clog at all.  It's a non functional nozzle.


It's been one hell of a journey, thanks for coming along.  Before we part ways I leave you with one final piece of caring advice - maybe it's best to stay away from SS cleanings all together.  Rinse them, soak them, suck ink from their faces - but never turn up the heat on a clogged X900 nozzle.

THE, END

Allan Stam

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1449 on: January 15, 2014, 01:00:04 pm »

Dear Eric,

Having read your words and shared your frustrations for over a year, you feel like a real friend (that sounds creepy in an internet sorts of way, but...). I wish you the best of luck in all your future endeavors. You have brought a sense of humor and a great deal of knowledge and understanding to many of us which reflects all your hard work. Hopefully you won't ever feel this has been time wasted as you have enriched and helped to educated more people than you are likely to know.

Thanks again for all your efforts,

Allan
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1450 on: January 15, 2014, 02:11:15 pm »

Sincere thanks Allan.  

As far as the time, it's been a pleasure.  And for sure it hasn't all been mine - so many others have chimed in with hugely valuable time, knowledge and advice along the way.  As far as the money, it's been interesting...

Last night I sold one of the microscopes that I bought for this exploration, on ebay.  This was my plan from day-one, to recuperate what I could once we saw this to the end.  It sold for a loss, like most of what I put into this deal, which begs one to look back at all this like a bean counter might.  But like your kind words suggest, that would be missing the the greatest point of all.  So the only beans I count are in my burrito.  But I bet if I did count I'd be square by now anyway, thanks to some pretty special people on this forum and across this planet.

This has been an education in both science and humanity.  Both thrive here.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 02:13:01 pm by Eric Gulbransen »
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aforero

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Re:
« Reply #1451 on: June 22, 2014, 01:21:08 am »

This could be named Programmed Obsolescence, thanks for your efforts.
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Beza

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1452 on: July 26, 2014, 12:26:19 am »

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and am very glad I found it.  Thank you so much for all the information.  Like many here, I am very frustrated with the Epson Stylus Pro 7900.  I just got a new one 2 weeks ago, but from day one and first print, the prints came out with dark banding lines, so nothing to do with the printer not being used enough like many professionals seem to suggest.  The paper I am using to troubleshoot is the one that came with the printer, the Epson Matte Double Weight.  I would not dare using my own media until this is resolved.  What makes me more aggravated is that Epson has not been able to solve the issue and seems to be just pushing it forward.  I've had 3 Epson technicians come to my office to troubleshoot, but none could solve the issue.  The third one spent 6 hours in my office changing "paper feed adjustment" from percentage to percentage.  He succeeded in getting rid of the dark banding lines and instead produced white banding lines!  With a few more trials he got both types of banding lines on the same 10 x 12" print.  I am dumbfounded. It seems obvious to me that the issue does not have necessarily to do with paper feed adjustment, at least not alone.  But he would not troubleshoot with anything else. You can imagine how many prints 6 hours of troubleshooting doing the same thing over and over can give off.  I got this printer due to all the good reviews by renowned professional photographers on the internet.  I can only imagine that they do not get the same level of customer service that most people get.  Till I received the printer, I was not aware of banding issues.  In addition to banding, the nozzle check always gives a deflection on the same spot of the vivid magenta, no matter how many times cleaning is done.  I got this printer for my start up business and now my focus has shifted from doing my work to trying to fix the issue.  Epson is taking too long to do a replacement and is not particularly keen on refunding me.  I am absolutely infuriated by Epson's customer service, though I am still in hope that this can be resolved because my main objective is to get my business running.  By the way, for the people here who are absolutely dissatisfied with Epson, I suggest you file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.  The number of complaints there about Epson is not proportional to the level of dissatisfaction seen online.  Writing reviews online may increase awareness, but it does not call Epson's attention.  BBB is the way to go.  I'll file my complaint for sure.  If you have any suggestions to give me about how to resolve this issue, I am all ears and thank you in advance.  If you've faced the same issue I am facing, please let me know what you did or are doing to fix it.
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Chris233

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1453 on: July 26, 2014, 01:21:16 am »

Hi Beza,

Everyone has a different method - but here is how I would approach horizontal banding... and the order it would be done.

- Verify perfect nozzle check
- Check paper doesn't have horizontal banding on the emulsion (sometimes they do). Look at it under a light at different angles.

- CR Head Slant test print
- PF Head Slant test print
     There are "auto" print head alignments Uni/Bi D alignments that the printer can do, but if the customer is quality critical I always do them manually with a high powered loupe. Results end up much better than relying on the printer's IR sensor.
- Paper thickness test print
- Check carriage rail lubrication

- Print Uni-Directional ONLY for the next steps.  Bi-Directional printing adds another variable. 1440x1440, 12 pass.
- Print 20" long ruler x paper width (44"?) and verify all sides opposite are same length. 20"x43" rectangle should do the trick. If the width is off, then the print head carriage or belts have a problem. If vertical is off, the printer's feed mechanism is off - or the nip rollers are applying different pressures along the paper. - or the paper is loaded incorrectly.


- run test print file with both gradient and solid swatches. Should be 2 gradient swatches for each color (with 1 gradient rotated 90 degrees). They don't need to be huge, 3" x 8" gradients and 3"x3" solid swatches should be fine. You want to stress test the machine to easily see any banding. If the banding occurs only on the cyan swatch, but is perfect on all others - then it's not due to paper feed adjustment.
- From the test print, if you see white gaps in the horizontal banding (if it is due to micro-weave) - then reduce the paper feed adjustment value. If dark gaps appear, you've gone too far. Tweak until no horizontal banding is present due to micro-weave adjustments. I just run prints in increments +/- 10 from the rip and queue up the jobs. It's pretty quick if settings are controlled via your rip. It's time consuming if using epson driver between each print.
-- Micro-weave banding also effects image quality. If you notice fine type and vector edges are getting sharper, then you're going in the right direction with the adjustment.
- Tweak vacuum settings (in my experience, lower vacuum setting reduces banding) but I'm calibrating machines to film, not paper. Very different.
- Try a different paper, tweak RIP settings, print Vector vs Raster files (sometimes a bad postscript setting can cause banding on a print with Vectors).

- some Rips have various VSD, Pass, Resolution, etc adjustments available.  Despite having a perfectly calibrated machine, the settings at your computer can make the difference.

Tweak any or all of the above as each of these things can produce or null horizontal banding. Setup the machine to print nozzle check before each print begins - nothing worse than chasing your tail troubleshooting when the problem is because a channel took a dump.


Hope it helps
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 01:40:49 am by Chris233 »
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BobDavid

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1454 on: July 26, 2014, 09:11:34 am »

As a photographer, I think the wisest choice among the current LF Epsons is to opt for the 9890 or the 7890. My 9900 bit the dust a year ago. I think the ultimate culprit had something to do with the green or the orange channels. Now that I've "downgraded" to a 7890, I've had no an issues. I do use the printer just about every day. If I've nothing to print, I run a nozzle check. I also think living in a humid climate helps. If you are not trying to match PMS colors, the X890 printers are fine. I've not seen a difference between pictures printed with the 7980 and 9900.
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MartyR99

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1455 on: September 27, 2014, 09:48:39 am »

As a happy 2-year 3880 user always wow'd by what comes out of the printer, pushing print sizes to the the 36" driver limit and wanting still bigger prints, I read this entire thread a few weeks ago like a novel, hoping for a happy ending, as I've been longing for one of the larger LF models.  Thanks to Eric and friends for sharing your "journey" in vivid detail. I wish that your results had been different, but the knowledge you and many others imparted to the rest of us Epson LF fans is invaluable and well worth the 20-30 hours invested in reading this thread.  Thank you!
   I tend to draw the same conclusion from a few other folks that the 7890/9890 9-ink systems may yield longer, more trouble-free print head lifespans.  I want to believe it, anyway, because I've reached the point that I'm ready to take the plunge.
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davidh202

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1456 on: September 27, 2014, 01:43:41 pm »

I have a 7900 (now 4 years old) and 9890 (3 1/2) AND BOTH WORKING FLAWLESSLY, (and I don't baby them ) ! These printers are getting bad press by a few, and it is not representative of the vast majority of them in use!!!
I would have originally gone for the 9890 had it been available, as the larger size is definitely advantageous, especially if you do canvas wraps.
Save the difference on the $ and go for the x890 series, as for photography it really is not necessary to have the G & O inks!!!
Put the savings into paper and a replacement inkset.!!!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 01:45:26 pm by davidh202 »
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Calvin Powell

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1457 on: October 09, 2014, 01:18:19 pm »

Hi, i didn't want to start a new thread because is my problem is also with the 7900, i hope i'm not breaking form rules here, however after spending some time researching this, and coming across this thread, this thread seems to have the most information clustered together i've seen.

So on our 7900 we developed a clog on the LLK head, and its not a very small clog, its almost 80-90% of the head, and its only getting worse, with less than 200-ish prints on the printer its self, and none of the others going bad.

So far we have been trying the different ranks of cleaning the printer has, including checking the wiper-blade assembly. and no SS cleaning,(after searching this form, thank you btw) and the LLk has only gotten worse. I fear is electronics, as it seems to be with a-lot of these print heads.

I know there are lots of other things we could try, damper assembly, different cleaning liquids you run instead of inks, but this block is huge and i haven't seen anyone with this massive of a clog on just one head.

What do you guys think.
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davidh202

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1458 on: October 09, 2014, 10:52:22 pm »

You don't have a clog you have ink starvation due to air in the line. It's also not the wiper. I'd be willing to bet it's a bad cart seal allowing air into the line.  Could be a bad cart seal or the needle itself in the LLK bay. LLK is the most used ink for all prints. If you have any carts running at a very low level this can also occur, as it can de pressurize the supply chain and affect the weakest link so to speak.  
You have nothing to loose before you call for service if out of warrantee...
 Get a new 150ml LLK cart before you do anything else, set the printer to auto check and nozzle clean,  and let the printer do it's thing. You may get the dreaded cleaned 3 times to no avail notice, let the printer rest between cleanings and turn it off and on to cycle the pressure pump and charge the lines. Do not just keep on doing cleanings without printing , but print some more  pages on plain paper till it works it's way out!
IF all that fails open in Maintenance mode and do a level 2 pair clean only, and then print print print on plain paper. If you see progress fine, if not you may have already done too much damage to the LLK nozzles . DO not use WINDEX!  
Good luck and by all means report back and let us know the outcome
  
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 11:10:30 pm by davidh202 »
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fetish

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #1459 on: October 15, 2014, 08:48:38 pm »

You don't have a clog you have ink starvation due to air in the line. It's also not the wiper. I'd be willing to bet it's a bad cart seal allowing air into the line.  Could be a bad cart seal or the needle itself in the LLK bay. LLK is the most used ink for all prints. If you have any carts running at a very low level this can also occur, as it can de pressurize the supply chain and affect the weakest link so to speak. 
You have nothing to loose before you call for service if out of warrantee...
 Get a new 150ml LLK cart before you do anything else, set the printer to auto check and nozzle clean,  and let the printer do it's thing. You may get the dreaded cleaned 3 times to no avail notice, let the printer rest between cleanings and turn it off and on to cycle the pressure pump and charge the lines. Do not just keep on doing cleanings without printing , but print some more  pages on plain paper till it works it's way out!
IF all that fails open in Maintenance mode and do a level 2 pair clean only, and then print print print on plain paper. If you see progress fine, if not you may have already done too much damage to the LLK nozzles . DO not use WINDEX! 
Good luck and by all means report back and let us know the outcome
   

Yup it's a bad cart seal. Just use some scotch tape and tape up the seams around the cart. It helps to hold it for a while. Also, do an eject cart and reload then clean once to get the pressure up before doing a nozzle check when doing a new print job after the printer sits idle for more than a day.
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