Epson 7900 from the inside - out

[Larry Heath]

This patent makes for some interesting reading.

Eric I think I'd be really careful with that cleaning fluid you are using. If it indeed contains Silane compounds (Organometalics) at significant consentrations its is really something you do NOT want to make a mistake with. Don't get it on you or even breath the vapor, your eyes lungs liver and nervous system will thank you.

Later Larry

[Eric Gulbransen]

which fluid are you talking about Larry?  I feel like flushing my entire downstairs in the toilet now. 

Hopefully no danger yet - I've only used rubbing alcohol distilled water and Dawn to any extent.  The "red" and "clear" fluids I got from HAL I've only used one drop of each (literally).  I didn't trust it then and I don't trust it even more now - having no idea what it is...  The one channel is lying face down in a drop of it now, sealed inside a tupperware container.  Now I don't even want to look at it..

[Eric Gulbransen]

Alright I read the patents.  Good for you my Mom could never get me reading this much.  I was a painter back in the day - high end cars.  Hated the chemicals, always paranoid.  They called me "the doctor".  I used airless sprayers, had outside air pumped in to my face mask, wore a white suit - even taped my wrists closed.  Still hated the chemicals so I quit.  Now I risk cutting my arms off with a 12" chop saw daily.  Doomed either way.

Sincere thanks for the warning Larry. 

I was about to dump the red cleaner in my waste jug but after rinsing the Cyan channel that I "think" I watched soak in the red cleaner - the one that sparkled - I checked it out under the microscope.  Maybe I confused something, it can't be the same channel.  Looks like it came straight from the factory - not a trace of blue in it, A N Y W H E R E.

WTF?

I have to confirm this, seems too remarkable to be true.  I set another channel face up with two drops of red cleaner, inside a small sealed container tonight.  We'll see what this thing looks like tomorrow.  Promise I will share.  In the mean time, always wear protection..

[Alan Goldhammer]

I just read the patent and it's interesting on two counts.  It provides a reference to a number of key inkjet print and ink patents from other companies and gives a clue to how one can approach a cleaning solution.  The way they did the test was to put a drop of ink on a gold coated slide which was then baked at 80C to harden the deposit.  They then washed the slide with water and a significant amount of ink came off.  The residue was then treated with the cleaning solution to see what worked.  Now this is not something one can do at home!  The question is whether we can come up with a substitute that would provide an easy way to experiment without doing everything on the print head.  Let me think about this for a while.

The Kodak researchers were trying to combine three functions in their cleaning solution:  a biocide that will get rid of any microbial contamination (and this is again something to think about; I'm not sure whether this is a key problem or not), a surfactant (detergent), and a humectant (something to help keep things moist).  This is a delicate balance and the researchers chose the silane compound as it fills all three purposes.  We all know that isopropyl alcohol is a biocide (it's in a lot of hand sanitizers and wipes that are used prior to vaccination).  Epson use glycerols and glycols as humectants in the ink mixtures.  The one thing to consider is whether more detergent might be needed in mixture.  Again let me think about this.

EDIT:  I don't think we need to move to the use of toxic compunds like the silanes or pyrolidones that were mentioned in this patent disclosure.

[Blue moon]

[quote author=Alan Goldhammer link=topic=61585.msg588575#msg588575 date=

The Kodak researchers were trying to combine three functions in their cleaning solution:  a biocide that will get rid of any microbial contamination (and this is again something to think about; I'm not sure whether this is a key problem or not), a surfactant (detergent), and a humectant (something to help keep things moist).  This is a delicate balance and the researchers chose the silane compound as it fills all three purposes.  We all know that isopropyl alcohol is a biocide (it's in a lot of hand sanitizers and wipes that are used prior to vaccination).  Epson use glycerols and glycols as humectants in the ink mixtures.  The one thing to consider is whether more detergent might be needed in mixture.  Again let me think about this.

EDIT:  I don't think we need to move to the use of toxic compunds like the silanes or pyrolidones that were mentioned in this patent disclosure.
[/quote]

I know that when Epson want to go "agressive"  they turn up the Glycol tap.
I have experienced zero success on my own Glycol intensive power cleaning program over the bones of a month in terms of removing even one clog....
So Alan if might suggest to you not to ignore upping the surfacant attack ...see what happens

[Larry Heath]

Ok here is the MSDS for the suspect red material. The good news is that its L/D 50 seems pretty high so it won’t kill you unless you get a lot of it on you or in you. So I would approach it in much the same way you do with a chop saw, with significant respect. It’s a tool use it wisely.

On a lighter note, I was thinking maybe adding some of the solvent DMSO to a more conventional cocktail of cleaning substances might help allow for better penetration of the materials into the small passages and more quickly remove the dried ink/polymerized carrier materials.

Later Larry

[Alan Goldhammer]

On a lighter note, I was thinking maybe adding some of the solvent DMSO to a more conventional cocktail of cleaning substances might help allow for better penetration of the materials into the small passages and more quickly remove the dried ink/polymerized carrier materials.

Later Larry

I would be very careful if you use DMSO as it could dissolve a lot more than just the ink clog; it's quite potent.  Don't get any on your fingers as you will taste it on your tongue very quickly (though it won't be hazardous).

[Eric Gulbransen]

Feel like I'm losing my mind here you guys throw chemical terms around like I throw crown molding up.  I am anxious to take the next step, just not sure what it is.  I checked my red soaked channel tonight, nothing doing it looks exactly the same.  Not sure wtf happened but somehow, someway, my cyan packed test channel got cleared clean as the day it was born.  Maybe this mansion has ghosts..  Tonight I repeated the same exact soak, only this time in the clear fluid.  Maybe that was it. 

Alan that supplier of the X-100 or whatever it was called, they denied me.  It was a chick on the phone, they always deny me.  So I did some poking around google tonight, as I really want to keep this ball rolling here, and found an interesting thread written by a German guy a couple of years ago who by accident found a great way to clean dried pigment ink.  It was a German made product designed for food service cleaning.  Turns out 3M sells a similar product.  it's kind of expensive - cheapest I can find is on amazon, it's $80 for 2liter bottle.  But whatever, if it works...

It's ingredients are, among other things I imagine, include ETHYLENE GLYCOL ETHYLHEXYL ETHER which are also apparently found in inkjet inks.

So what do our resident chemists think, please?

[Alan Goldhammer]

Eric, please post the link to the 3M product so I can see what's in it.  It may be fairly concentrated stuff and maybe the cost comes down when you dilute it to a working concentration.  All of these things contain some kind of surfactant (detergent) and I'm not sure that it really makes much of a difference about which one they use.  My goal is to help find a mixture that works and is cheap to make.  Sorry to hear about the problems getting Triton X-100; I wish I was still working in a lab and I could get some to you. 

[Eric Gulbransen]

Here it is Alan - http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Building-Life/Cycle/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U52300PM102FLRECAB2K44000000_nid=38T6ZVWPPSbeQB2XRP1WS8gl


here is a direct link to the msds of this 3M food service degreaser

[Alan Goldhammer]

Eric, this is pretty much a mixture of concentrated detergents, primarily long chain alcohol derivatives.  They are non-ionic (similar to Triton X-100) which means they well be gentler than ionic detergents which are usually ammonium compounds which would have a basic pH or sulfates which would be mildly acidic.  Certainly these would have to be diluted down to get a working solution and I can't see anything here that would be problematic for the print head.  Most of the consumer products that you can get in the grocery store have similar compounds in them but they are diluted way down (for fun I looked up Formula 409 which has ionic detergents but the concentrations of the two main ingredients is less than 2%).  If you could get a bottle of this stuff it would likely last a long while.  I wouldn't go above a working concentration of about 5% and would start off maybe at 1-2% here.

In looking at some of the Epson ink MSDS listings I guess the best approach might be to mix up something along the lines of the following (measure these in some volume unit ounces or ml):

6 parts water
2 parts isopropyl alcohol
2 parts glycerine (or glycerol as it is more commonly called)
1/2 part detergent

You could gradually increase the detergent if nothing is working and see if that helps.  I think the glycerol is important for preserving the moisture in the print head

Alan

[Blue moon]

Feel like I'm losing my mind here you guys throw chemical terms around like I throw crown molding up.  I am anxious to take the next step, just not sure what it is.  I checked my red soaked channel tonight, nothing doing it looks exactly the same.  Not sure wtf happened but somehow, someway, my cyan packed test channel got cleared clean as the day it was born.  Maybe this mansion has ghosts..  Tonight I repeated the same exact soak, only this time in the clear fluid.  Maybe that was it. 

Eric
Funny thing is i would trust  (with great care for your safety obviously ) your "red liquid" .......it shifted your cyan clog beautifully....the "white i would guess is an antidote or lubricant to undo any of the corrosive effects of the "red" once the clog has passed...the fact that red killed the cyan clog and white did not is an encouraging sign....can you possibly repeat both exercises a second time in the same way....you must be exhausted.."red may be a surfactant in disguise.....maybe
Ps lived in a haunted house once so im just used to this sort of thing....Alos Alan's recipes are getting very close to the mark...

[Eric Gulbransen]

Alan please when you mention "diluting down to get a working solution" what exactly do you mean?  This red liquid I have here for instance, if it were concentrated with the intent to be diluted down, and I did not dilute it, would that render it worthless?  Do these ingredients need to be spot on with ratios?  If so, if you don't mind me asking, why?  I'm sorry but neither of these questions have two wheels or can be nailed, so naturally I am lost.

[Alan Goldhammer]

The recipe I just posted  would be the best guess at a cleaning liquid based on the Epson inks and adding some stuff to solve the clog problem.  The majority of it is water.  If a solution of cleanser or anything else for that matter were too concentrated it might do some damage.  You can put a small amount of salt in a glass of water and drink it without any problem.  If you were to put a cup of salt in a glass of water bad things would happen to your body.  It's the same with the Epson print head.  One needs to strike a balance here.  I don't know what's in the Red liquid that you mention so I can't render a decision.

[Eric Gulbransen]

Thanks Alan. 

as for your concoction, what would I use as the detergent?

6 parts water
2 parts isopropyl alcohol
2 parts glycerine (or glycerol as it is more commonly called)
1/2 part detergent

[chaddro]

Hey Eric & Alan... this foodservice cleaner brought to mind BEAM oven and grill cleaner. Comes as a bright orange liquid.

From the MSDS the main ingredients are sodium hydroxide & sodium metasilicate, but I have no idea if those would be save for the print head or for removing ink. It IS a good grill cleaner!
We sells these where I work at and I can get a couple ounce packet of it if you think it's usable.

https://www.messnerinc.com/catalog/p/BAE-1/Beam_Oven_Grill_Cleaner_-_Gal/

MSDS available at that link.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Thanks Alan. 

as for your concoction, what would I use as the detergent?

6 parts water
2 parts isopropyl alcohol
2 parts glycerine (or glycerol as it is more commonly called)
1/2 part detergent

I would try Dawn as it's good enough for the oil spill coated birds!

[Alan Goldhammer]

Hey Eric & Alan... this foodservice cleaner brought to mind BEAM oven and grill cleaner. Comes as a bright orange liquid.

From the MSDS the main ingredients are sodium hydroxide & sodium metasilicate, but I have no idea if those would be save for the print head or for removing ink. It IS a good grill cleaner!
We sells these where I work at and I can get a couple ounce packet of it if you think it's usable.

https://www.messnerinc.com/catalog/p/BAE-1/Beam_Oven_Grill_Cleaner_-_Gal/

MSDS available at that link.

Sodium Hydroxide is lye and very corrosive.  I would not use this at all.  It probably would get rid of the clogs in the same way that drain cleaners open up clogged drains but it would also do much damage.

[snsandrze]

While doing a search for maintenance on a 4900, which, by the way, I don't even own one, I came across this product and it seems as though it might benefit others who are looking for a maintenance print mode (holiday mode). http://www.karmaplus.com/howWorks2.html. seems like a good idea for all Epson users to avoid long periods of not printing. I believe it's Windows only.

Steve

[Ken Doo]

While doing a search for maintenance on a 4900, which, by the way, I don't even own one, I came across this product and it seems as though it might benefit others who are looking for a maintenance print mode (holiday mode). http://www.karmaplus.com/howWorks2.html. seems like a good idea for all Epson users to avoid long periods of not printing. I believe it's Windows only.

Steve

HHC does work well when you're out of town for a bit.  It is indeed Windows only.  I use a dedicated laptop to schedule daily nozzle checks; inexpensive 10" roll of lustre in the printer.

ken