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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 619651 times)

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #860 on: October 31, 2012, 05:41:10 PM »

I used that method on an Epson 10000 head but it was not removed from the printer. There can not be more than 1 bar pressure difference when a vacuum is applied. In the end that head was lost too but I could solve some clog issues over the time I worked with it. My idea is that a really clogged nozzle set does not give way for any cleaning fluid that could resolve the ink again, you are just touching the surface of the blockade and not more than that. Ultrasound could shake up things up but today's head electronics will suffer too then.


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enduser

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #861 on: November 02, 2012, 01:24:39 AM »

This came to us today: is it how our photo printers should be sold?

http://www.visa.org.au/CampaignProcess.aspx?A=View&VID=6286233&KID=219475

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gwhitf

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #862 on: November 02, 2012, 12:24:54 PM »

Ultimately, the piezo printheads are designed in a way that really demands to be running.  Almost every day a job should run - or run power cleaning to keep fluid flowing in those chambers of the printhead and to flush out any ink that may be beginning to harden inside those supply ports.

I have not used my 7900 in months, after giving up on the LLK channel. I turned it on today and cleaned it and got this. It's getting much worse; something in that LLK that must be hardening.

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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #863 on: November 02, 2012, 07:37:38 PM »

The balance of ethylene glycol to glycerol is to address the carrying property of the aqueous solution so that the pigments are properly suspended and deposited.  It's also possible that it optimizes the solution to minimize (note that I don't say eliminate clogs)
I wasnt referring to the suspension of pigment by means of the mix of ethylene glycerol and diethylene glycol . You may have misunderstood what i said.
I was specifically referring to epsons own solvents for both aqueous and pigment inks clog problems..what i said was that Epson increase the amount of ethylene glycol ( at the expense of glycerol ) as they switch from attempting to unclog aqueous inks to trying to unblock pigments ink clogs.
My understanding of what glycerol does in an ink is to act as an emulsifier (and mild surfactant ) so that resin and pigment  stay nicely mixed together when air tight in a sealed cartridge.correct me if i am wrong.
My understanding of what glycol does in a solvent is to attempt to undo the harm caused when mixed surplus to requirement resin  and pigment is mismanaged when finally heated and aerated  out of the piezo nozzles and not properly disposed of by the printer system itself.
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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #864 on: November 02, 2012, 07:57:50 PM »

I'm very skeptical of the statement that the vivid magenta ink would 'burn out a 7800 head in six months "

I would be delighted to be sceptical too ( i have a few vivids that id like to use in the 7800 ! )
Will get in touch with Epson next week and ask them whats the big deal about not using vivid majenta in a 7800.

Promise to let you know what they say .
BTW..i meant to refer to diethylene glycol in my last post
Thanks
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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #865 on: November 05, 2012, 08:39:47 AM »

I would be delighted to be sceptical too ( i have a few vivids that id like to use in the 7800 ! )
Will get in touch with Epson next week and ask them whats the big deal about not using vivid majenta in a 7800

Hi Alan
Promised i would let you know why one must not use vivid majenta in older printers which are not specially coated in the heads for the use of newer inks..said i would contact Epson....but located my thread on Joseph Holmes website instead..appears Epson wanted to sell the newer vivid inks to x800 people but decided that would not be wise...i can only assume Joseph got his info directly from Epson...i personally would simply not go against his advice anyway....will dump the vivid carts for safety reasons...
Back then to people using non-Epson inks....all kinds of cleaning solutions not endorsed by Epson..im baffled as to why they are any safer than say myself trying vivid inksets in a 7800 piezo head....confused...
Quote from Joseph Holmes enclosed


"A) New "ink repelling coating technology" on the surface to reduce head clogging and cleaning hassles, especially with linty or dusty papers (fine art papers of some kinds) and to make the new, more demanding inkset work. The heads are much the same as those in the Stylus® Pro 3800, but with this ink repelling coating added, in order to prevent the new inks from causing serious trouble. The new inks cannot safely be used in the earlier printer models. The Vivid Magenta is said to be especially problematic for heads without the ink repelling coating, and to completely ruin such a head within about six months of use. I'm assured that Epson would prefer to be able to offer this inkset as an upgrade to their customers who own the SP3800, 4800, 7800, and 9800 if they could. I am told that the net effect of the new head, together with the new inkset, is to substantially reduce clogging, compared with the SP4800, 7800 and 9800."
End of quote....
Thanks
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #866 on: November 05, 2012, 01:03:14 PM »

@Blue Moon - I'm still skeptical of the 'warning' not to use Vivid Magenta on x800 printers.  I don't think it's a matter of the chemistry of the new ink versus the old ink and somehow this burns out print heads but rather a more simple explanation in that Epson would have to come up with all new drivers for the x800 printers using Vivid Magenta instead of the older version since one would presume that there would be color shifts if the older driver would be used.  This would cause problems for Epson in that they now have to support two different drivers for the same printer and might cause headaches in terms of user support.  In addition, when the user makes the shift to Vivid Magenta, the ink line must be completely purged of the older ink in order to get the correct results another headache for Epson support.

I don't put much faith in second hand quotes.
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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #867 on: November 05, 2012, 06:21:24 PM »

@Blue Moon - I'm still skeptical of the 'warning' not to use Vivid Magenta on x800 printers.  I don't think it's a matter of the chemistry of the new ink versus the old ink and somehow this burns out print heads but rather a more simple explanation in that Epson would have to come up with all new drivers for the x800 printers using Vivid Magenta instead of the older version since one would presume that there would be color shifts if the older driver would be used.  This would cause problems for Epson in that they now have to support two different drivers for the same printer and might cause headaches in terms of user support.  In addition, when the user makes the shift to Vivid Magenta, the ink line must be completely purged of the older ink in order to get the correct results another headache for Epson support.


You have just given me a second good reason not to try using newer inksets in an older printer...Epson,please be more upfront in future and just tell us as it is !


[quote ]
I don't put much faith in second hand quotes.
[/quote]

Good for you.I do if they come from Joseph Holme's website in particular or Joseph Holmes himself in person ..but i must admit i would be pretty selective in trusting almost  anyone elses quotes though (either first or second hand..)We cant be too careful .



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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #868 on: November 07, 2012, 12:02:03 PM »

Word of advice - do not fly home to spend weeks with your family (when a hurricane named Sandy looms on the horizon).  No electricity, fuel, refrigerator, heat, internet, work, school or tv, can get stressful..  :)

I left for NY worried about our 7900 dying while I was away.  I should have worried about people dying instead.  Came home to find CY completely checked out and PK on it's way, but they both came back with no permanent damage.  We need a Holiday Mode.

...

OK people I have a perfectly good (clogged) 9900 head here, still in a machine with only 300 prints on it.  Been clogged for many months apparently.  Before I replace the head on it I'd like to experiment a bit by cleaning it like my genius buddy and I did to our 7900, only this time with something a little more potent than simply water.  With all this chemistry talk here lately I'd like to ask the noodles that be, what do we think is the best solution available for this experiment?  Epson 9900 head, Epson Ultrachrome HDR Ink. 

I do have two bottles of Epson cleaning solution (red and clear) which I got from HAL, but I have no idea what the solutions really are.  Bottles are unmarked.  So before I blindly use this solution, I ask the noodles that be..

Obviously I will share our results here in smashing fashion.

batter up!

Denniswcr

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #869 on: November 07, 2012, 03:18:45 PM »

Glad to see you home safe and sound Eric.
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Denniswcr

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #870 on: November 07, 2012, 03:31:49 PM »

I can't comment on what to use for a cleaning solution, but I have had some bad dropouts on my 7900.  The machine is only about 6 months old and is still using the intial cartridges, although almost all are now at the <10% level.  I have always had success with a color pair clean, so far, occasionally needing a power clean if there are a lot of nozzles out in one head.  I try to run nozzle checks every day or two since I am a low user making only a few prints a month.  I am begining to think the when the ink pressure system turns off, there may be a gradual backflow of ink from the head.  That would indicate the whatever method Epson uses to pevent that from happening is borderline.  If the nozzles did not clean I would think that it was a plug, but since they always clean it seems to me that the ink is not up to the nozzles.  Perhaps cleaning as soon as a dropout is noticed the problem can be rduced before the ink hardens into a plug.
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KristiSheriff

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #871 on: November 08, 2012, 12:02:30 AM »

I just wanted to add that my 9900 is having issues with the Green channel mainly and the LLK too.  I think you may be onto something about those two inks.  No other problems with any of my other inks.  It's so bad that my printer is unusable and Epson quoted me $2200 in parts (possibly) $100 travel fee and $175 per hour fee with one hour minimum to fix it. 
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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #872 on: November 08, 2012, 08:41:17 AM »

I just wanted to add that my 9900 is having issues with the Green channel mainly and the LLK too.  I think you may be onto something about those two inks.  No other problems with any of my other inks.  It's so bad that my printer is unusable and Epson quoted me $2200 in parts (possibly) $100 travel fee and $175 per hour fee with one hour minimum to fix it. 
You are obviously outside of warranty new or extended..how old is the printer...heavily used ?
In terms of inks used i wonder have you been getting through as much llk and green as your other inks...?
1 do you do b/w as much as color...llk is there for lowering bronzing in b/w prints as you know..
2 would you use green much either....i gather its more for graphics people than photographers...but i have no idea myself.which side of the fence are you on ...?
3 if you had problems with 2 colors in the same pair a guess would be the air seal itself but not so in this case.
4 have you ever vibrated your green or llk carts in any way
My own little theory is that the Piezo channels and nozzles are bombarded by underused pigment from above and recyled resins from below beyond the capacity of the Nano Nozzles to deal with over time...I would be very keen to see Epsons next design model to replace the x900 series.
Please bear in mind that i use the 7800 series and anything that i have picked up about the 7900 is solely through Erics heroic thread..thanks Eric..
Thanks
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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #873 on: November 08, 2012, 09:17:30 AM »

I can't comment on what to use for a cleaning solution, but I have had some bad dropouts on my 7900.  The machine is only about 6 months old and is still using the intial cartridges, although almost all are now at the <10% level.  I have always had success with a color pair clean, so far, occasionally needing a power clean if there are a lot of nozzles out in one head.  I try to run nozzle checks every day or two since I am a low user making only a few prints a month.  I am begining to think the when the ink pressure system turns off, there may be a gradual backflow of ink from the head.  That would indicate the whatever method Epson uses to pevent that from happening is borderline.  If the nozzles did not clean I would think that it was a plug, but since they always clean it seems to me that the ink is not up to the nozzles.  Perhaps cleaning as soon as a dropout is noticed the problem can be rduced before the ink hardens into a plug.
Your inks must not harden into a plug!!
As you know better than me the idea of the air seals on the park station is to replicate the environment of the air sealed ink cartridge itself.....there is no additional line of defense to prevent resins hardening anywhere in the printer system other than in the one place that air is allowed in...when your printer head is off its park station and the rubber seals are redundant....just for the duration of the print job...the outflowing pumped pressurised inks would naturally prevent air working its way back up the head while actually printing...then its back to rubber seal protection..
To follow up on your theory why not leave your air pressure system on more often....maybe see does it keep fresher inks out on the surface of the head...do on and off and record any change.
Through no fault of your own you also may be importing hard resins back into the Nano Nozzles by means of your wiper blade system...God and Epson are the only ones who know the real story there.
I made a little case earlier on that your type of situation was possible for a consciencious infrequent even new owner....using lots of resin to clean resin...leaving pigments (through underuse )to settle to the bottom and then come forward as a sort of pigsludge..why is Epsons cleaning program not able to keep a 6 months old machine on the rails ? Your warranty ! Extend it and be safe....
Thanks
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Denniswcr

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #874 on: November 08, 2012, 11:46:51 AM »

To follow up on your theory why not leave your air pressure system on more often....maybe see does it keep fresher inks out on the surface of the head...do on and off and record any change.

 Your warranty ! Extend it and be safe....


I normally leave the printer powered on all the time, but it does go to sleep.  How does one keep the pressure up when the printer sleeps?

No doubt about it I will purchase the extended warranty.
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Blue moon

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #875 on: November 08, 2012, 01:35:42 PM »

I normally leave the printer powered on all the time, but it does go to sleep.  How does one keep the pressure up when the printer sleeps?

No doubt about it I will purchase the extended warranty.
Good...sorry i do not use x900 so i have no idea if air pressure system is relaxed  or released when in sleep mode...i would guess that pressure is maintained but maybe some of our expert x900 users will confirm that or otherwise for you..or can you override defaults to ensure air pressure is continuous for say your experiment time.if you decide to experiment that is...i do remember someone saying earlier in the thread who uses a lot of printers that the best ink performing machine they had was a machine where the air pressure was on continuously for some obscure reason..others seem to doubt the overall capacity of the x900 to keep up a reliable and regular air pressure (to their satisfaction anyway ) its there somewhere in the 45 pages if someone can remember this issue being discussed !
Anyhow whether air pressure is up or down i feel should make absolutely no difference to your ink quality if your air seals are sealing out air and your wiper blades were keeping out resins and your pigments were and still are emulsified in the overall ink mix.....air pressure will move ink along the lines to the dampers and the piezo pump will take the ink to the end hopefully.....assuming damper is sealed and balanced..and air pressure is good up to the damper...the point is your ink should be the same quality whether its in its cartridge,lines,dampers and head (on the park station) ....what makes your ink deteriorate in a sealed system? If you have no ink it might be a pressure problem....look at your damper early on...pipes...carts nearly empty ?if you have clogged ink its back to the other reasons ive outlined...and very probably others too..let us know when the service rep tells you if you air pumps ok wont you...its such a new machine it sounds odd to be clapping out on pumps
Thanks
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KevinM

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Re: Epson 7900 warranties?
« Reply #876 on: November 08, 2012, 02:20:35 PM »

Earlier this year, I sold my 9600. At the time, I expected to relocate and I wasn't printing very much. After reading about clogs in the new 7900/9900 printers, I'm regretting the sale of my 9600.

Demand has changed, though, and I now need a wide-format printer or I'm going to have to pay someone else to print for me.

A question about extended warranties: has anyone tried SquareTrade?

From what I've read in this thread and elsewhere, it seems the experience with Epson field technicians is a mixed bag. In addition, Epson charges a lot of $$ for extended service, especially when compared to other warranty extensions on products ranging from automobiles to enterprise computer systems. At 32% of the purchase price, the cost seems exorbitant. Hence the question about alternatives to Epson's warranty.
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Bob DeBellis

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #877 on: November 11, 2012, 11:51:01 PM »

Hello all you fellow Epson sufferers,

Some of you may know about my situation with my 7900 printer, not that it is unusual.
I have an Epson 7900 with which I've made about 20 prints. It is about 2 yrs old and 1 yr out of warranty. All was fine until I made a 10 day trip with a friend. When I got home, the head was clogged permanently. I purchased a new head ($1390) thinking I would replace it myself but am reconsidering. Here's why. In my opinion, based on my experience and what I have read on blogs of others experiences, the probability of another permanent clog within a year is high. If a person intends to keep using a 900 series Epson printer, it makes sense to buy the extended warranty which I believe costs about $775. That would cover not only the print head cost but all other parts and labor. For me to be able to do that, I must allow Delusion One to make the repair and certify to Epson that the printer is 100% functional. That means I would sustain an initial hit of about $2000 for the repair plus the $775 warranty. Also, I believe Epson should inform potentional buyers that is strongly suggested that they purchase this contract as their printers are prone to clogging and other excessive maintenance expense, especially if they are casual users. I would appreciate any thoughts, comments or suggestions about my conclusion.

Thanks,
Bob DeBellis
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KevinM

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #878 on: November 12, 2012, 12:11:35 AM »

Bob,

This sounds a lot like a "repair or replace" question. 

I suggest you check out Adorama and B&H Photo to see their prices on brand-new 7900 printers. With at least one of the two, you may find the new printer cost to be less than your repair cost plus extended warranty cost.

I've also discovered that B&H sells SquareTrade warranties for the Epson 7900/9900 for less than SquareTrade, so at a cost of under $150 for an extra year of warranty coverage they appear to be subsidizing the warranty cost. 

When I asked SquareTrade whether print heads were covered, here is what I was told: " the internal components of the unit would be covered such as the internal circuitry, the print head, mechanics of the printer and other parts. However, any external cables, cartridges and software would not be covered under the SquareTrade warranty."

I recall reading that Epson has made some improvements to the print heads to reduce clogging. It would be valuable if others could confirm this with specifics of what was improved and what evidence exists for less clogging.

I've also read that using non-Epson inks may also avoid clogging . . .
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Bob DeBellis

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #879 on: November 12, 2012, 12:00:55 PM »

Hi Chris and Kevin,
Thanks for your replies.
I don't think you're rude Chris by asking the question of so few prints in 2 years. It seem nuts but it was because of circumstances that this happened. When I bought the printer I had also just purchased a new dwelling and was also simulataneously dealing with a digital photography learning curve (Lightroom, Photoshop, MAC environment, EPSON 7900, monitor calibration, film scanner, DSLR, etc). I was overwhelmed. The reason I bought the printer at this inconvenient time in my life was because Epson sent a coupon to me offering a $1000 off the cost of the printer.
Even though I didn't make serious prints I was getting used to the printer and had become well aware of it's propensity for clogging. Eveyday I would run a nozzle check and make sure it was fine. If not, I would do a regular cleaning or attempt to print a color wheel and a subsequent nozzle check to see if that cleared.
In any event, after just moments ago contacting Epson Support, it appears that because my printer is 2 yrs old there is no way for me to get an extended warranty anyway so I was wrong about that.
As for the B&H extended service contract, I think I remember reading that weren't available for FL where I live.
As to the low volume of printing being the fault, I remember reading on this blog that hi volume printing was no guarantee that the printer would not get a clog. Not to mention once again that if you go away from the printer for a week or so, you might find yourself with an expensive problem.
Anyway, any and all help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Bob
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