If you were purchasing a new MFD camera today, which would you choose?

[fotometria gr]

If you can get it down to two cameras, then I would have to say it pays to rent them both if you have an assignment or are going on a trip (rent 1 not both) and use it for a week or however long you are away, getting to know the camera more intimately will help you make your decisions.

I don't think you got the meaning...

[Hulyss]

I Would go Alpa with phase one back P30+ or Leica S2.

[rgmoore]

Like the OP I am interested in moving up to MFD for beauty and portrait work.

While I appreciate the recommendations for P31+ and H4D-40,  I was wondering if there are any benefits to a larger un-cropped sensor (P65 or Aptus II 10), not for the sake of more MPs, but for that elusive MF look which may be differentiated from FF DSLR even more with a larger vs a smaller sensor.

I am asking based of my experiences in shooting Hasselblad V and Mamiya RZ67 years ago with film.  Perhaps the comparison doesn't apply to various MFD formats, but I always preferred the look of the
RZ for portraits which I realize may be due more to the way RZ lenses draw than the larger negative.

Any insights and experiences would be much appreciated.

Richard

[Juanito]

Like the OP I am interested in moving up to MFD for beauty and portrait work.

While I appreciate the recommendations for P31+ and H4D-40,  I was wondering if there are any benefits to a larger un-cropped sensor (P65 or Aptus II 10), not for the sake of more MPs, but for that elusive MF look which may be differentiated from FF DSLR even more with a larger vs a smaller sensor.

All things being equal, I'd rather not have a cropped sensor. However, I don't think the difference between a HD40 crop and the P65 is all that great and hardly noticeable at best. You're pretty much splitting hairs between the two. Now, if money were no object, I'd get the HD4x with the Aptus II 10 DB. But it is and the extra $25k or so that it would cost for a small amount of extra image area doesn't make sense for me. (I shoot fashion/portraiture and the extra megapixels are completely unnecessary anyhow.)

John

[paratom]

I dont shoot whatyou shoot but use my camera only as a hobby photographer. Right now it is many images my kids and some landscape.
I had a Hy6 with Sinar back before - I liked it a lot but now have had the S2 for nearly one year.
The biggest advantage of the S2 for me is, that while it is still a bug camera I find myself using it much more also for applications where I would have used a Nikon in earlier times. It draws attention but not as much as the "big" MF cameras, it handles very fast, the AF is very good, the body is well damped so I can do a lot of handhold shooting, the lenses are great even wide open (which I use a lot), and it is all weatherproof (I tested this recently in heavy snowing conditions).
I sometimes miss the Hy6 with the WLF, but the S2 scores for me a lot because I now bring a MF to places where I would not have used a MF camera in earlier times.
Then the AF and exp metering are also working quite well and reliable, and the files do really not need much procesing for my taste.
So I would buy this camera again.

[Wayne Fox]

Money no object? I'd get a Hassie 4Dx. You get the Hassie camera and lenses plus the open platform. Best of all worlds.

a p40  on a hassie 4Dx would be a nice system, but to buy a 4Dx you must first buy a H1 or H2 to trade in on it.  They can be had cheap, so maybe not a big deal, but you can't just buy a 4Dx

[NikolaBorissov]

I'd suggest to test all the systems you can possibly put your hands on and evaluate which one suits your needs better. Image quality aside, everything else is extremely subjective and you'll find a million differing opinions on handling, software, etc... When making such a big investment, you can only rely on first-hand experience. Personally, after having rented and tested the two main contenders, PhaseOne and Hasselblad, I ended up investing in a H4D-40 system - for my needs it was the much better option. I shoot fashion, beauty and advertising and for that I find True Phocus invaluable. It's the only system that lets you shoot wide open and position the subject's eyes in the corner of the image and having them tack sharp in focus, nothing beats that. The IQ is amazing and the camera is actually usable in the 400-800 ASA range, which is a big bonus when shooting moving objects in available light. The grain at 400-800 is really pleasant and film-like, so sometimes I shoot at 400 ASA even in the studio, I love that feel of the file. Having only one battery to deal with is very convenient, too. The lenses are to die for - I have the 28, 80, 210 and 35-90 and I really couldn't wish for anything more quality-wise. Besides, there's a killer offer on the H4d-40 + 80mm kit now, you can grab a second lens for 50% off - get the 35-90 for half price and you'll be a very happy man, this has got to be the most amazing lens I've ever come across. As for Phocus - the latest releases are stable (and I'm a PC user!), no issues there. Raw processing is simple and the IQ is, ehm, wow. Phocus Mobile works as advertised, really comfy when you need that kind of thing. I think all the hype about C1 is a bit artificial - I don't really find any relevant differences between the two. I only have one problem with the system - being a PC user. Shooting tethered to a PC laptop is problematic, because of the small FireWire sockets that all PC laptops have - you have to use a FW800-to-small FW400 adapter which is really flimsy and the cable jiggles a lot, it's hard to keep in place even with gaffer tape, so you really have to pay attention not to move it at all once you've connected the camera to Phocus. Tried a few FW800-to-expresscard adapters, didn't work at all. This applies only to the laptops, the PC towers have big FW sockets so no issue there. That's the only thing I'd like to see changed in the Hassy - the next generation to be using USB3 and not the loathed FW. Fortunately, I hate shooting tethered and do it only when the clients insist, so I'm not really concerned with the issue What else... Yep, you've also got the HTS option which is really nice for wicked portraits and fashion stuff. If money was no object, I'd get the H4D-60, but I couldn't really justify the huge price difference with the needs of my current clients, and the 40 is a bit faster, so I decided to get the entry level, start building the system up, and get a high-end body in the future, maybe after a generation or two of cameras.

[fredjeang]

I'd suggest to test all the systems you can possibly put your hands on and evaluate which one suits your needs better. Image quality aside, everything else is extremely subjective and you'll find a million differing opinions on handling, software, etc... When making such a big investment, you can only rely on first-hand experience. Personally, after having rented and tested the two main contenders, PhaseOne and Hasselblad, I ended up investing in a H4D-40 system - for my needs it was the much better option. I shoot fashion, beauty and advertising and for that I find True Phocus invaluable. It's the only system that lets you shoot wide open and position the subject's eyes in the corner of the image and having them tack sharp in focus, nothing beats that. The IQ is amazing and the camera is actually usable in the 400-800 ASA range, which is a big bonus when shooting moving objects in available light. The grain at 400-800 is really pleasant and film-like, so sometimes I shoot at 400 ASA even in the studio, I love that feel of the file. Having only one battery to deal with is very convenient, too. The lenses are to die for - I have the 28, 80, 210 and 35-90 and I really couldn't wish for anything more quality-wise. Besides, there's a killer offer on the H4d-40 + 80mm kit now, you can grab a second lens for 50% off - get the 35-90 for half price and you'll be a very happy man, this has got to be the most amazing lens I've ever come across. As for Phocus - the latest releases are stable (and I'm a PC user!), no issues there. Raw processing is simple and the IQ is, ehm, wow. Phocus Mobile works as advertised, really comfy when you need that kind of thing. I think all the hype about C1 is a bit artificial - I don't really find any relevant differences between the two. I only have one problem with the system - being a PC user. Shooting tethered to a PC laptop is problematic, because of the small FireWire sockets that all PC laptops have - you have to use a FW800-to-small FW400 adapter which is really flimsy and the cable jiggles a lot, it's hard to keep in place even with gaffer tape, so you really have to pay attention not to move it at all once you've connected the camera to Phocus. Tried a few FW800-to-expresscard adapters, didn't work at all. This applies only to the laptops, the PC towers have big FW sockets so no issue there. That's the only thing I'd like to see changed in the Hassy - the next generation to be using USB3 and not the loathed FW. Fortunately, I hate shooting tethered and do it only when the clients insist, so I'm not really concerned with the issue What else... Yep, you've also got the HTS option which is really nice for wicked portraits and fashion stuff. If money was no object, I'd get the H4D-60, but I couldn't really justify the huge price difference with the needs of my current clients, and the 40 is a bit faster, so I decided to get the entry level, start building the system up, and get a high-end body in the future, maybe after a generation or two of cameras.

I'm on PC too (we should be rare here), I hate tether too, Firewire sucks too...and if I'd buy a MF today it would be indeed within the Hassy system.

But as far as I'm concern, while MF is not going multimedia, I'm done with them, and I suspect that in 2 or 3 generations Red camera would have released a fully high def still+raw motion camera (at good cost).


Very good works Nikola, great imagery. High level.

Best regards.

[JV]

Another vote for the Hasselblad H4D-40.  I would pick up the 100mm, 50mm-II and 28mm lenses.

[EricWHiss]

... I was wondering if there are any benefits to a larger un-cropped sensor (P65 or Aptus II 10), not for the sake of more MPs, but for that elusive MF look which may be differentiated from FF DSLR even more with a larger vs a smaller sensor...

Richard,
I think there is something to the extra pixels and few extra mm in size with the 80mp sensors.  At least I have noticed it when I went to the AFi-ii 12 from p20, ixpress 528 and CF-39MS.   More tonality, more film like, if that makes sense.  But not sure if everyone will notice it, or if it comes through in prints. Certainly on the screen it does.

[David Watson]

No question in my mind for your application.  The H4D-40 wins hands down as a complete photographic system.  Truefocus is very useful and the camera ergonomics and operations are way better than the Phase/Mamiya.  Lenses I would choose would be the 50Mk2, and 100 to start with then the 35 or 28 and finally the 150 - all nice sharp glass.

[fotometria gr]

Money no object? I'd get a Hassie 4Dx. You get the Hassie camera and lenses plus the open platform. Best of all worlds.

I recently tested the Hassie HD40. I liked it. The Phocus software seemed easy to use and did what I needed. The images can also be processed directly through Lightroom - which is my processing software of choice. Color was comparable to what I've been getting out of my Leaf back. The True Focus system worked great. Images from the HD40 were noticeably sharper than those from my H1. High ISO - to 800 - was usable.

John

Money no object? I would go for a Porsche and keep my Contax with 22mpx Imacon, ....the Porsche would surely insure better MODELS for posing, thus more success! Q.E.D. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[ondebanks]

If you were purchasing a new MFD camera today, which would you choose?

For you: I'd be person number 234 recommending the H4D40. It has the best sensor in digital medium format, currently (Kodak KAF-40000) - the same sensor which has made the Pentax 645D so successful. And I think that AF is overrated in medium format (and I happily do without it on most of my lenses), but TrueFocus is not - it really does give the H4 series the edge for people photography.

For me: my "needs" are (1) Mounts/adapts M645 lenses like my 24/4 fisheye and 200/2.8 APO, (2) long exposures, (3) preferably higher real ISO (thanks to microlenses), (4) focal plane shutter.
Sadly, the P645D can't do the 1st of these, although it's ideal on all the others.
The H-blads can't do the 1st or 4th.
Neither can the Hy6/AFi, and indeed if one is limited to Leaf and Sinar backs, it's no good on the 2nd and 3rd either!
If money was no object, the Leica S2 can do all 4.

Since money most definitely is an object, I'm staying put with my Mamiya 645AFD.  Upgrading my back to a P30+ would improve the situation a lot with regard to my 2nd and 3rd needs, and despite being one Kodak sensor generation behind, it would come very close to the S2 for signal to noise and resolution. (The big leap forward was from the 9 micron to 6.8 micron sensors; less of an improvement going from the 6.8 micron to 6 micron ones). Besides, and this isn't entirely rhetorical, is it worth getting an S2 but not using any S2 lenses?

I really wish (probably futilely) that Phase One would come to their senses, and build a back around the Kodak KAF-40000; it would be the generational successor to the P30+, in the same way as that was the generational successor to the P21+.

Ray

[kuau]

+1
I use the leaf afi body with a leaf afi aptus II 7 back
excellent combo and I love the rotating sensor.
money no object Leica S2

While there are some that like Phocus, I also prefer C1.  

The 645DF body is the weak link though - what a terrible viewfinder, poor sync speed, lots of vibration, and the viewfinder stays dark for an eternity between frames which makes it difficult for fashion or beauty work - all IMHO.  Once you've used another camera you won't be happy with the DF.  People keep saying that Phase is coming out with a new camera but they've updated the DF already several times and it still has lots of limitations.  Unless they toss that platform and start new, its going to still be behind other camera platforms.  

Personally, I'd go with an AFi with Leaf back or the Hasselblad 4-xx and learn to use Phocus.  It's not bad, just different.

 The AFi and the H are the most advanced cameras out there.  You can buy the AFi body's from DHW or other places new and get the leaf back.   If you had to get a mamiya for a phase or Leaf back to get C1 software, then pick up an RZ with phase or leaf back.

[rgmoore]

Richard,
I think there is something to the extra pixels and few extra mm in size with the 80mp sensors.  At least I have noticed it when I went to the AFi-ii 12 from p20, ixpress 528 and CF-39MS.   More tonality, more film like, if that makes sense.  But not sure if everyone will notice it, or if it comes through in prints. Certainly on the screen it does.

Juanito and Eric,

Thank you for your replies and comments.  I had some limited use of 645DF with P30+ and while the images were eye popping on the screen compared to my 5DII,  the Epson 3880 became the great equalizer.  Yes, the P30+ excelled at bigger print sizes, but at 17" x 22" (the largest that I need to print) the difference did not consistently come trough in print;  in a few instances it seemed that 5DII did better.  If the difference had been as distinct and as consistent as a 16" x 20" print from 4x5 sheet film vs MF film, then P30+ would have ended up in my gear bag.

Again, appreciate the discussion.  Back to the drawing board...

Richard

[bcooter]

snip.....

I really wish (probably futilely) that Phase One would come to their senses, and build a back around the Kodak KAF-40000; it would be the generational successor to the P30+, in the same way as that was the generational successor to the P21+.

Ray

Regardless of money, I agree I'd like to see more backs with the Kodak 40mpx sensor.  Everyone that uses a Pentax or Hasselblad raves about it.

Still, I love my p21+ and use it more than my p30+ because it's so responsive.  It shoots virtually as fast as my Contax and doesn't have that digital lag feel.

The only issue with it is it can moire easier (though I don't see much moire) and it's probably 1/2 or 1/3 a stop less useable iso than the p30+.

I do know if you can find one, today the p21+ is the deal of the century and when I shoot it side by side my p30+ I can never really see any noticeable difference in detail.

IMO

BC

[fotometria gr]

I switched because Contax AF is too slow, not always precise (as my Sinar M), and about useless under low light.

I replace battery with a fresh one of exactly same type. This is the H4D advantage. 2 batteries is all I used till now for longer photo sessions.

Obviously you wouldn't shoot at all if AF didn't exist! Your saying not mine... sorry for spotting your photographic abilities... Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[dergiman]

I´d choose a Hy6

no wait! I actually have this exact camera! 

[amsp]

My dream camera is something in the style of Hy6 or Hasselblad V-series with a PhaseOne back. Highly modular, different finders, rotating sensor, and much faster AF. I'm still hoping Phase's next camera will be something along these lines.

So, to answer the question.. if money was no issue and I had to buy a camera today I'd probably look at the Hy6, even though I'm not a fan of leaf backs. If money WAS an issue I'd make the same choice I did and go with Mamiya/Phase.

[mtomalty]

Money no object? I would go for a Porsche and keep my Contax with 22mpx Imacon, ....the Porsche would surely insure better MODELS for posing, thus more success!

If you require a Porsche to get models perhaps an examination of other areas of
your 'equipment' should be a priority 

Mark