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Author Topic: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?  (Read 11003 times)

KevinGSaunders

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I hope this request is in the correct forum as the 35mm folks will have no idea what we are talking about. I am shooting architecture with a Rollei X-Act2, Leaf Aptus 75S and I am having a really tough time with my Schneider APO Digitar 35mm. I need to shift up to 15mm up to get the buildings I need to get and I just can't get the sharpness at the top of the frame to my satisfaction. I had a portfolio review with a major architect in town and their "pit bull" tore me up on sharpness. That is all he cared about.

I have read about the curved focal plan on the 35 and have sent the lens to Schneider for testing, plus have spent countless hours making sure everything on the camera is perfectly aligned, and I just can't get around the fact that at the extremes this lens appears soft, or at least I haven't found a way to make it sharp edge to edge.

This brings up the next question. What is the best lens solution in this area? I have not seen a direct comparision between the Schneider Super Digitar 28mm and the Rodenstock Digaron HR W 32mm. I know the focal lengths are different so that is not the question. I have heard of such significant falloff and color shift issues with he Schneider that I am reaching out to you guys for thoughts. BTW I have the ability to shoot a white shot every time to calculate LCC's in C1, so I can deal with most of the falloff and color issues, I think.

The question is, for the discriminating client, do I ditch the 35 and go with the Rodenstock or keep the 35 and go with the Schneider? I appreciate your thoughts here and I know others will too as there is precious little info on these lenses in this context.
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Kevin G Saunders
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yaya

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 06:26:11 am »

I hope this request is in the correct forum as the 35mm folks will have no idea what we are talking about. I am shooting architecture with a Rollei X-Act2, Leaf Aptus 75S and I am having a really tough time with my Schneider APO Digitar 35mm. I need to shift up to 15mm up to get the buildings I need to get and I just can't get the sharpness at the top of the frame to my satisfaction. I had a portfolio review with a major architect in town and their "pit bull" tore me up on sharpness. That is all he cared about.

I have read about the curved focal plan on the 35 and have sent the lens to Schneider for testing, plus have spent countless hours making sure everything on the camera is perfectly aligned, and I just can't get around the fact that at the extremes this lens appears soft, or at least I haven't found a way to make it sharp edge to edge.

This brings up the next question. What is the best lens solution in this area? I have not seen a direct comparision between the Schneider Super Digitar 28mm and the Rodenstock Digaron HR W 32mm. I know the focal lengths are different so that is not the question. I have heard of such significant falloff and color shift issues with he Schneider that I am reaching out to you guys for thoughts. BTW I have the ability to shoot a white shot every time to calculate LCC's in C1, so I can deal with most of the falloff and color issues, I think.

The question is, for the discriminating client, do I ditch the 35 and go with the Rodenstock or keep the 35 and go with the Schneider? I appreciate your thoughts here and I know others will too as there is precious little info on these lenses in this context.

Kevin my guess is that it's your camera that is the problem and not your lens. If you have access to a "pancake" camera such as an ALPA, Arca-Swiss Rm, Cambo EDS/ WRS etc that is equipped with the same lens that you can try, I believe that you will find that the 35mm can deliver, providing that it sits on a camera suitable for it

A wider lens such as the 32mm or the 28mm will be even harder, if not impossible to use on your camera

Hope this helps

Yair
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KevinGSaunders

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2012, 06:39:48 am »

Hi Yair,

Thank you so much. I had considered this and at this point I don't have access to a pancake camera. At the risk of being either ignorant or stubborn, what in your opinion makes the pancake camera do what the view camera can't? Specifically, what is going out of alignment that curves the field?

I know that some pancake cameras allow traditional copal shutters so I could use the same lenses but at this point I don't know enough about them to know which way to go.

I very much appreciate the advice and if one feels the need to go offline to not bore the rest, my email is kevin@texasbestphotography.com.

Thanks again.

Kevin
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Kevin G Saunders
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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2012, 09:29:55 am »

With wide angle lenses the pancake design ensures parallelism between the lens plane and the film plane in a way that your rollei simply can't. Are the difficulties you're encountering really due to curvature of field or that the front and rear standards aren't perfectly parallel? Depth of focus with the 35mm @ f11 on the Aptus 75S @ the HFD, is only something like 0.325mm, so if the standards are a little askew that could easily account for what you are seeing. In my experience the 35mm is a stellar performer - though it does go soft fairly quickly towards the edge of the (admittedly large) IC.

That said, it's not all bad news for bellows cameras. I shoot the 28 on a Linhof Techno. It was originally quite a demanding lens to focus, but after a while I got to know its characteristics and now its fine - especially since, being such a wide lens, I usually shoot it at the HFD anyway. Because the Techno was designed for digital, the rear standard is fixed - machined from the same single piece of metal as the bed of the camera - which definitely helps with achieving parallelism. It has rear rise and fall geared in, and rear shift is achieved via the sliding back. Shifting the 28 is generally a no-no on large sensors with microlenses (e.g. IQ180), but on non-microlens DBs it's superb.

Yes, you could reuse your lenses in any of the cameras from Alpa, Arca and Cambo - but here's the kicker: you have to get those lenses remounted in proprietary mounts for each of the companies just listed ... and boy, oh boy, that ain't cheap - and has to be done at the factory. Take a look at some of the prices for Alpa mounted lenses - the mount is often almost as expensive as the lens! e.g. 28mm = $4152, in Alpa mount = $7832.

Jim
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KevinGSaunders

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 11:04:29 am »

Hi Jim,

Thanks very much. I am fortunately pretty good at setting things up once I know what to look for. I am hyper calibrating the parallelism of the front and rear standards and going to continue to test.

I really don't have the resources to change platforms now, but am wondering if that Rodenstock 32mm is a significantly sharper lens. I hope we can get some dialog from folks who have these lenses to see what they find.

Thanks again!
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Kevin G Saunders
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 08:31:04 pm »

Hi Kevin
Ya I'm in agreement with Jim. The 35mm like all 4 Schneiders I use is a beautiful lens but it does get softer as I get closer to the image circle but I just work around it. I try to avoid high contrast elements to the corners of images with greater lens movements and also apply extra sharpening to the corners if need be.

What Jim also says about the larger sensor cameras is 100% correct. In fact the 35mm is also a no no if you are into greater lens movements. As he also mentioned there is no issue on the smaller medium format sensors. I have the 28mm which I use with a Hasselblad H3D 39 on a Cambo wide DS. The movements on the 28mm is much greater than the Rodenstock 32mm and for a lesser price plus less size and weight. Have never used the 32mn but the 28mm is rediculously sharp with 0 distortion on the Cambo. The downside is because of the huge lens movements you end up with a massive front lens element, so much so there is no physical centre filter. You have to make a note of every new lens movement. I use notes on the iphone and email it to my self and put it in job folder) There is a digital centre filter plugin in Photoshop where you key in the lens movements. It does a very good job and you can adjust the amount of vignetting removal (you have all or nothing in Hasselblad Phocus unlike with Phase one capture). The downside is, IT'S SO BLOODY TIME CONSUMING)

The 28mm lens is my favorite lens, followed by the 35mm. I use quite a lot of movements on these lenses. You can see examples of images on my website where I used the 28mm. Most of the Dublin airport architectural images, the 2 images "radiating beams, Blackrock Baths" in the Dublin Panoramic section and the Tory island photos in the landscapes and Panoramic Ireland sections
Hope that helps

KevinGSaunders

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 08:51:39 pm »

Hi Enda,

Thanks so much. I have worked out a system to get the standards exactly parallel and found that by stopping down to 11.66 I got sharper, but at 15mm shift it is still not right, really. I have a particular building that has a tile roof that must be shot so that roof is pretty close to the top of the frame with 15 mm of shift, so that high contrast transition from the tiles to the sky is fuzzy. I have tree branches limiting my ability to step back and this seems to happen a lot on the stuff I am shooting, so it must be addressed.

I have a white high density polyethylene plate that I place in front of the lens to save a white shot to create a custom LCC in Capture 1 so I think I can handle the 28. I liked your work with it and appreciate you sharing. I have not had anyone chime in saying the Rodenstock 32 is so much better that it is the best choice.

These architects that I am trying to win over want sharpness over anything else and I have so solve that problem. The 35 seems ok to me up to about 8 mm of shift, so it is still a good lens, but the amount of $$ that goes into a new lens makes me quake a bit, and I want to get as much consensus as possible before shelling out the dough.

Finally, I have 5 mm of movement left with the 35mm so the flange focal distance of the 28 should work just fine.

I simply can't afford a pancake camera so I have to make this work and I greatly appreciate all your advice.
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Kevin G Saunders
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EricWHiss

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 12:26:59 am »

Kevin,
I use an X-Act2 and wonder if you could describe your procedure for getting everything aligned.  I have observed that both of mine sag very slightly with weight of the sliding back adapter and digital back fitted.  
Nonetheless, I am left wondering about the comment that a pancake camera would do better.  I mean the DOF with such a wide lens at the focal distance required to shoot a whole building in the frame should be quite sufficient to absorb errors in alignment?     I do mostly macro work, so haven't the experience with buildings or wides to know better.  I do have the 47mm and 60mm schneider apo digitars as well as the 55mm APO rodenstock and my feeling is the 55mm rodenstock is better on the edges than either schneider.  Anyhow if it were me, I'd try the rodenstock before going out and buying an Alpa.

btw - here's the Schneider document: http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/pdf/foto/digitare_e.pdf      
The are suggesting you should have 17mm shift
The rodenstock data sheet is here: http://www.linhofstudio.com/products/lenses/documents/RodenstockPhotokinanews201032mmHR.pdf
Looks like the 32mm has more room to shift
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:34:01 am by EricWHiss »
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pixjohn

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 01:33:50 am »

Jut FYI I believe there are 2 versions of the 35mm lens. The newer lens has a bigger image circle.

I use a 35xl on Cambo wide and don't have problems at 15mm rise with sharpness, I will see lens vignetting first.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 02:32:47 am »

May seem an odd suggestion but have you considered a pano head that will allow you to rotate the lens around its centre point to avoid parallax errors and then stitch? It will give you a wider field of view and in a program such as PTGuie the stitching is pretty simple and quick. It will allow you to use the sharpest area of the lens and wont cost a bomb.

Long term and high price I believe the best solution is to use a larger sensor.
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yaya

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 03:19:51 am »

May seem an odd suggestion but have you considered a pano head that will allow you to rotate the lens around its centre point to avoid parallax errors and then stitch? It will give you a wider field of view and in a program such as PTGuie the stitching is pretty simple and quick. It will allow you to use the sharpest area of the lens and wont cost a bomb.

Long term and high price I believe the best solution is to use a larger sensor.

Or get a longer lens i.e. 43mm or 47mm (cheaper and with large image circles) and use stitching
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 05:42:40 am »


btw - here's the Schneider document: http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/pdf/foto/digitare_e.pdf      
The are suggesting you should have 17mm shift
The rodenstock data sheet is here: http://www.linhofstudio.com/products/lenses/documents/RodenstockPhotokinanews201032mmHR.pdf
Looks like the 32mm has more room to shift

I use the Schneider Super-Digitar 28 XL Lens with a image circle of 90mm and I've got up to up around 10 and left/right of 15 with the Cambo where vignetting is just starting to creep in. I saw the Rodenstock has a centre filter. That's definitely a big plus though and of course it can be used on the larger sensor cameras.

I saw there Yair suggests going with a greater focal length lens and than stitching. Quite often that just isn't a solution. I know where Kevin is coming from that quite often there is just something blocking you from getting the distance between you and the subject. You may be in a confined space for an interior shot or moving back and shooting with a longer focal length may reduce the impact of the dynamic forms you get when you are closer to the subject matter.



yaya

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 07:04:36 am »

I saw there Yair suggests going with a greater focal length lens and than stitching. Quite often that just isn't a solution. I know where Kevin is coming from that quite often there is just something blocking you from getting the distance between you and the subject. You may be in a confined space for an interior shot or moving back and shooting with a longer focal length may reduce the impact of the dynamic forms you get when you are closer to the subject matter.

Enda I know that it is not ideal but with a longer lens you don't need to pull back if you stitch and on the X-Act there's less chance of having focusing issues...

43mm XL, two verticals on an Arca-Swiss Rm2D
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 07:40:36 am »

Hi Yair
I'm not trying to be smart ( :))been smart but what you have sent is a very typical example of where it will work. Believe me I could send you multiple examples of where you are simply too close to a subject to utilize the movements of the 43mm lens. Some photographers don't use large movements but reading Kevin's post I would say he goes for the more dramatic approach. Quite often my images consist of 2 stitched images from the 35mm or the 28mm with the movements at their limits (Up to 19mm with the 28mm) If you take into account the huge difference in the angle of view between the 28mm and the 43mm to start with, there is just no way of achieving the same thing with the 43mm even with 4 stitches.

There are instances where you could create a stitch from 4 images (up left, up right, down left, down right) but that is so time consuming..and that's only if the image you want to take is within the constraints of the angle of view of the 43mm lens versus the distance to the subject. At the end of the day he has to make a living from his work and he has to ask him self will the cost he can charge for one of these images be enough to justify the time it take to do one of these stitches. Don't forget unless he takes notes, he has to do a calibration shot for all 4. If it's an external shot you may have moving clouds, you may have changing light and moving clouds, you may have traffic or a lot of people walking in and out of shots. IE a lot of waiting, rather than taking one image, or possibly 2. Than there is the increase in time in all stages of post production.

Here is an example of where only stitching with a 28mm would work. If you click select "view larger image" you will see it 1800 pixels wide. Exactly where I stood was the only place where I could get the right balance between the ratiating beams, the diving platform and the graffiti on the right with the vertical elements on the right of the image. The 32mm Rodenstock would not have achieved this because the angle of view would not be great enough (despite the max lens movements which are similar to the 28mm Schneider). I didn't have the luxury of been able to move back and than there was the time factor. I had to take 2 sets of 7 exposures. I had only a short period of time to get the shot so I could see the sun through that hole. It was fundamental to have it there with the starburst. I literally had just enough time. The drawback with the 28mm is the lack of centre filter (for now) and the fact that it's not "future proof" because of the huge problem with colour cast on the larger sensor MF camera/view camera combinations. (Ah or maybe Hasselblad can change the laws of physics to make it work on their next H5D 5000. Oh to dream ;D)






Enda I know that it is not ideal but with a longer lens you don't need to pull back if you stitch and on the X-Act there's less chance of having focusing issues...

43mm XL, two verticals on an Arca-Swiss Rm2D

KevinGSaunders

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 08:51:16 am »

Hi All,

Thank you for the fantastic responses. Pardon the cheesy marketing shot that I had to do recently but it shows that I do have a pano rig since one was mentioned. I will also send the shot that got me in trouble with the architect pit bull in the portfolio review, and Enda is correct that because of trees overhead, I could not pull back any farther!

I do have the stitching back on my X-Act2 and my 47 gets used every time I can stitch because it is incredibly sharp.

I will send some examples later in the day and to all, I greatly appreciate this thread. I have looked hard and have yet to see any real discussions of the 28, 32 and 35 in the same place.

Regarding parallel, I have a small carpenter's square that will allow me to quickly verify parallelism by simply removing the bellows and sticking it in there. I also calibrated my index scales which I discovered were very far off indeed!

I can get the standards in the right place with care, and with my custom white plate made of high density polyethylene I can shoot a white image alongside a "money shot" image and Capture One will make a nice custom LCC to deal with the falloff and the color shifts.

At this point I seem to have three scenarios:

1) Keep the 35 and shoot at 11.67. This maxes out sharpness but at the top of an image with high contrast, like a roofline against sky, there is still trouble.
2) Keep the 35 and get the 28. This adds the perspective of the 28 and I can use the 35 with less shift.
3) Ditch the 35 and get the Rodenstock 32 HR. I still have not heard from folks who have shot both.

The money would be about the same for scenario 2 or 3.

Thanks again.

Best,

Kevin
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 08:58:39 am »

Ya you're right about the 32mm. I'd love to hear feedback about it. And I too love the 47mm. I use it for the less is more type of panoramic shot, where the distorted perspective of a wider angle wouldn't work well.

If you do decide to go for the 28mm, I would definitely keep the 35mm if you can afford to. You get quite a different kind of shot to the 28mm. That 7mm makes a big difference to the perspective. There are defiantly example where one works way better than the other.

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2012, 09:03:33 am »

I hope this request is in the correct forum as the 35mm folks will have no idea what we are talking about. I am shooting architecture with a Rollei X-Act2, Leaf Aptus 75S and I am having a really tough time with my Schneider APO Digitar 35mm. I need to shift up to 15mm up to get the buildings I need to get and I just can't get the sharpness at the top of the frame to my satisfaction. I had a portfolio review with a major architect in town and their "pit bull" tore me up on sharpness. That is all he cared about.

I have read about the curved focal plan on the 35 and have sent the lens to Schneider for testing, plus have spent countless hours making sure everything on the camera is perfectly aligned, and I just can't get around the fact that at the extremes this lens appears soft, or at least I haven't found a way to make it sharp edge to edge.

This brings up the next question. What is the best lens solution in this area? I have not seen a direct comparision between the Schneider Super Digitar 28mm and the Rodenstock Digaron HR W 32mm. I know the focal lengths are different so that is not the question. I have heard of such significant falloff and color shift issues with he Schneider that I am reaching out to you guys for thoughts. BTW I have the ability to shoot a white shot every time to calculate LCC's in C1, so I can deal with most of the falloff and color issues, I think.

The question is, for the discriminating client, do I ditch the 35 and go with the Rodenstock or keep the 35 and go with the Schneider? I appreciate your thoughts here and I know others will too as there is precious little info on these lenses in this context.
I believe that there is no such a thing as a perfect lens and since "movements" decrease the quality further on every lens, the solution I've come up with, ...is to improve (by a lot) sharpness from other aspects of the capturing chain. Have you consider to use a "multishot" back for instance? If you do that in stills (as is architecture), there is going to be quite an improvement in the sharpness and although the difference from your center of the image to the edges is still going to be evident, you may consider that you have the extra info that you require. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
  P.S. Another "trick" (quite effective if you combine it with multishot), is to shoot wider than you need and then crop the unnecessary image.
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2012, 09:16:42 am »

Using a multishot isn't really practical for architecture, (or landscapes) especially for externals where you have a lot of elements which may be moving, (clouds, traffic, people, trees, flowers, long grasses,)  You can stitch the images no problem as long as you shoot quite quickly between the images and/or wait for the elements to be quite similar on both images. For example I have several seascape images where I stitched multiple shots together even though you had 30 second exposures of white water moving in and out over rocks, sand or what ever. You just have to wait for the water patterns to be quite similar and CS5 does the rest when stitching. A multishot camera here just wouldn't work.

I do get some softness after 15mm on the 35mm, but not enough that can't be resolved with a bit of extra sharpening later. Many of my landscape panos on the 35mm are 16mm left or right with about 3mm up or down for example.

Cropping with a wider angle lens has some disatvantages.
  • You end up with a much more exagerated perspective when your subject matter is quite close. For internals for example
  • Sometimes due to space constraints there is no way of getting the single shot cropped option

KevinGSaunders

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 02:03:42 pm »

So here is the point where I am at now with the 35. The yellow tall building was the shot that was too soft. I had not done an LCC either as I liked the vignetting. I reshot it on a cloudy day just to test sharpness on the lens. I still didn't like the way the roof looked. BTW the parking garage was a stitch.

I am going back to shoot the yellow building this afternoon with the calibrated standards and a LCC test shot before the money shot and will report back.

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KevinGSaunders

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Re: Next lens: Schneider Super Digitar 28mm or Rodenstock HR W 32MM?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 06:03:10 pm »

I went back and this is the best I could do with the 35. I shot in .04mm increments as I have a digital caliper and could accurately focus stack, and this was the best of the lot, at F11.67.

There was 15mm shift and I did calculate a LLC based on a white test shot immediately prior.

I also checked and the standards were parallel in both planes. I appreciate your thoughts.
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