Can IQ180 & IQ160 "dance", because Hasselblad doesn't make a 50MS & 200MS CF?

[fotometria gr]

Its been a lot of talk lately about how much better the old 22mpx 16x capable backs (Imacon 528c, Hasselblad CF22MS, Sinarback HR54S) are in stills, even if they are compared with the 80mpx modern backs. However Hasselblad, did announced two extra versions of their 50mpx back, one with multishot 4x capability (the 50ms) and another one with microstep (new tech 6x) capability (the 200ms). Given that the quality from both backs is undeniably much better than any other high resolution back in stills (where quality and true color really matters) and the fact that the possible lesser quality of the Hasselblad back in other aspects of photography, may be insignificant to affect the quality of the shot, how do you explain Hasselblad's decision to stop the production of the CF backs and of a possible CF version of the 50MS and 200MS? Don't they want the extra sales? Isn't their policy suicidal? Any ideas about this strange "closed system" ONLY decision? What harm would do to them if they would market both the H4D-50MS and H4D-200MS, while at the same time they could offer a CF-50MS and CF-200MS with the same or even more profit? Both the backs would have been without competition currently, especially now that even the great 48mpx Sinarback Evolution 86MS is only tethered and hence, can only compete with ...half of the 50MS (not to mention the 200ms). Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[EricWHiss]

I do understand the possible benefit of having a completely known system, camera, back and lenses such that DAC's can be made easily, but I don't understand HB's decision to stop selling the CF backs. 

[fotometria gr]

I do understand the possible benefit of having a completely known system, camera, back and lenses such that DAC's can be made easily, but I don't understand HB's decision to stop selling the CF backs.  

The strange thing, is that there is nothing stoping them to retain their "closed system" while they add customers by keeping the CFs, they seem to reconsider their policy with the introduction of the H4X, but I feel this is not enough, they have to put the camera in production (not just a firmware upgrade) and reintroduce the CFs. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Brian Hirschfeld]

When you say they still sell the CF backs, do you mean all that stuff listed on Adorama? http://www.adorama.com/HSIX528C.html

until recently I never understood these and kind of assumed that they were old-stock kinda things that were still in demand (or not) and just on the website because they had stock...especially since I can't rlly find anything about them on the Hasselblad website (which confuses me), but I think they offer different things for different applications. The micro stepping process, I think will loose its inherent value as backs get their 80mp+ sensors which include increased dynamic range as well. I think there are people who swear by micro stepping and will never see the future but, eventually the cost (time, effort) of micro stepping will be negated by digital sensor technology. I guess Hasselblad really wants people using multi-shot (which is their proprietary technology) of the moment that they are pushing for these applications. Its all about business, and this is definitely a way they can bring people into their closed system if they swore by the CF backs and now want to be able to have a "similar" process on a newer back etc, in this case the obvious choice would be a Hasselblad camera WITH a Hasselblad back = $$$ for Hasselblad vs a Hasselblad camera + phase one back which doesn't equal as much $$$ for Hasselblad.

Thats my thoughts, and I appreciate the fact that I am not the most knowledgable on micro stepping AND multishot (even though I owned a H3Dii-39ms for quite some time)

[EricWHiss]

I doubt very much Adorama really has those CF backs in stock - its just an old listing.  You've mentioned microstep and multishot before, and I'll tell you again people just don't know until they've seen it.  Mutlishot has limited application and even when it can be used its slower and harder on the gear than single shot. That said it still has several advantages: 1) better DR 2) better tonality 3) more file robustness for extreme edits 4) more texture 5) better color at least at the micro level 6) ability to stop the lens down more - 2 - 3 stops more which results in more DOF for product and macro work.   

I'm going to have to make a comparison post 80mp Leaf AFi-ii vs 528CF sometime here on LuLa.    But let me tell you I shot a dollar bill with the Aptus 12 on a Mamiya with 120mm macro and the CF-39MS (which only does multishot not microstep)  - detail like the printing on the bill - well it was very close considering 39mp vrs 80 but possibly the Leaf had the edge up until f/13 ... however the really interesting thing was the texture of the paper wrinkles and such didn't really show on the Aptus file, but even fingerprints on the bill were visible with the multishot file.    The 80mp Leaf resolved fine detail with high contrast eg. the colored fibers woven into the bill and the printed ink on the bill.  The multishot file got all that and the subtle stuff too like the fingerprint and the modeling of the paper and the color transitions of the ink. 

You just can't believe how real the multishot files look until you see them.

[Chris Eyrich]

You just can't believe how real the multishot files look until you see them.

here is an example of the different gradation/tonality:

http://www.ephotozine.com/article/hasselblad-h4d-200ms-200-megapixel-hands-on-preview-17174 (scroll down to the helmet and gloves crops) 

[fotometria gr]

When you say they still sell the CF backs, do you mean all that stuff listed on Adorama? http://www.adorama.com/HSIX528C.html

until recently I never understood these and kind of assumed that they were old-stock kinda things that were still in demand (or not) and just on the website because they had stock...especially since I can't rlly find anything about them on the Hasselblad website (which confuses me), but I think they offer different things for different applications. The micro stepping process, I think will loose its inherent value as backs get their 80mp+ sensors which include increased dynamic range as well. I think there are people who swear by micro stepping and will never see the future but, eventually the cost (time, effort) of micro stepping will be negated by digital sensor technology. I guess Hasselblad really wants people using multi-shot (which is their proprietary technology) of the moment that they are pushing for these applications. Its all about business, and this is definitely a way they can bring people into their closed system if they swore by the CF backs and now want to be able to have a "similar" process on a newer back etc, in this case the obvious choice would be a Hasselblad camera WITH a Hasselblad back = $$$ for Hasselblad vs a Hasselblad camera + phase one back which doesn't equal as much $$$ for Hasselblad.

Thats my thoughts, and I appreciate the fact that I am not the most knowledgable on micro stepping AND multishot (even though I owned a H3Dii-39ms for quite some time)

Brian, Eric's phrase "You just can't believe how real the multishot files look until you see them." says it all! In fact, given the tech advancement during the last decade, I 've come to the conclusion that a microstep image from a 528c, won't be able to be reached by any single shot back even after 15 years. The point that I try to make with the OP, is that the possible better quality of an 80mpx back than another 50mpx back won't make the actual photograph significantly better so that it matters in the result, while in stills, it does make hell of a lot of difference that influences the actual photograph. Look at Chris's example (thanks for sharing Chris) and you'll see what I mean and what Eric means. Its exactly what I see in my results, most importantly, In art reproduction, the "fine tuning" of the profile to have an accurate outcome when printing is much less time consuming and the result so good, ...that its difficult to recognize the original from the copy a yard away! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Pics2]

I have a question regarding MS Hasselblad backs, since I have no experience with them. Is multishot picture ruined by using lower quality flashes with inconsistent color temperature? In other words, if each(or at least one) of four shots has slightly different color temperature, what would happen? And what flashes are well known for consistent color temperature(except expensive ProFoto and Broncolor)?
Thanks!

[fotometria gr]

I have a question regarding MS Hasselblad backs, since I have no experience with them. Is multishot picture ruined by using lower quality flashes with inconsistent color temperature? In other words, if each(or at least one) of four shots has slightly different color temperature, what would happen? And what flashes are well known for consistent color temperature(except expensive ProFoto and Broncolor)?
Thanks!

Never thought of testing this. I have four very old "Bowens" but never tested it with these. There is no problem with my fluorescents or my profotos. I'll test it after Monday and let you know, but I suspect it will work, the temperature difference can't be more than 3-350 degrees, can it? I wouldn't consider this as being able to make the sensor receive it as "movement detection". It can certainly ruin a color accuracy demanding work though...., "true color" IS the most important advantage of multishot, with sharpness, moire freedom and resolution following. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Pics2]

Ok, thanks! So, you think 350K wouldn't make a difference? This is maybe a stupid question, since I don't have experience with it.

[John.Williams]

Hi Pics2,

You have brought up a very important point regarding consistency in lighting for the multishot captures; it stands to reason that the light should be the same in every frame for a multishot capture or else the penalty is a color shift in between the amount and color of the light present at time of capture. And a change in light = bad picture quality.

Broncolor is going to perform exceptionally well over a pair of Norman's - hence, you pay for that performance gain. Now before those lighting experts start lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks, the topic is consistency in lighting from shot-to-shot.

Since there is more than one way to approach the solution, in many cases, a lighting system can produce consistent color from shot to shot if given enough time to fully recharge the flash system. I can speak to FlexColor and Phocus software setting of "flash delay" that can be programmed to allow enough time (i.e. 5 seconds, 8 seconds, etc.) in between flashes to prepare the capacitors get fully charged to release the same amount of energy on consecutive discharges.

Single shot just cannot compare to multishot. No color interpolation and 4x (or more) contrast data reveals a level of detail that is unmatched. Many, many references on this one.

As far as the business decision as to why Hasselblad does not sell digital backs any longer - is it possible that there simply was not enough economic demand to justify the total cost of goods sold? Business basics.

I have not had the experience that a clandestine, anti-customer, stick-it-to-the-clients-conspiracy motive is the suspect here. Just plain old economics. Thank goodness for common sense -

So when is the dance? Can I bring a friend?

John

[fotometria gr]

Hi Pics2,

You have brought up a very important point regarding consistency in lighting for the multishot captures; it stands to reason that the light should be the same in every frame for a multishot capture or else the penalty is a color shift in between the amount and color of the light present at time of capture. And a change in light = bad picture quality.

Broncolor is going to perform exceptionally well over a pair of Norman's - hence, you pay for that performance gain. Now before those lighting experts start lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks, the topic is consistency in lighting from shot-to-shot.

Since there is more than one way to approach the solution, in many cases, a lighting system can produce consistent color from shot to shot if given enough time to fully recharge the flash system. I can speak to FlexColor and Phocus software setting of "flash delay" that can be programmed to allow enough time (i.e. 5 seconds, 8 seconds, etc.) in between flashes to prepare the capacitors get fully charged to release the same amount of energy on consecutive discharges.

Single shot just cannot compare to multishot. No color interpolation and 4x (or more) contrast data reveals a level of detail that is unmatched. Many, many references on this one.

As far as the business decision as to why Hasselblad does not sell digital backs any longer - is it possible that there simply was not enough economic demand to justify the total cost of goods sold? Business basics.

I have not had the experience that a clandestine, anti-customer, stick-it-to-the-clients-conspiracy motive is the suspect here. Just plain old economics. Thank goodness for common sense -

So when is the dance? Can I bring a friend?

John

No John, we are not invited either, it will stay a "closed" party, if Hasselblad continues with a "closed system". Anybody can understand low demand, but since the CFVs are still made it would be only the cost of the adapters in concern if they have been remained interchangeable. Surely the small extra sales could cover that. Now with the H4X, you don't even help the V-owners to change for the H system by keeping their back and lenses and just purchase a body and a lens adapter, which they could until the CFs and H2F. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[EricWHiss]

In addition to my profoto stuff,  I use old Metz 60 Ct-4 flash units sometimes, sometimes daylight, sometimes outside with clouds moving by, all kinds of lighting situations without any real problems.  I'm not sure what Phocus / Flexcolor is doing to equalize the lighting between frames but in any case all I can report is that it's just not a tricky as you might read on the internet to use multishot.   On on occasion while doing some tests with a forum member here on LuLa we had trouble with some fluorescent lights he built for himself.  We could do multi shot but not microstep.   I never did figure out why - if they had flicker or something but in any case lighting consistency or  color shift is not something I worry much about when doing multishot.

[Dustbak]

I have a question regarding MS Hasselblad backs, since I have no experience with them. Is multishot picture ruined by using lower quality flashes with inconsistent color temperature? In other words, if each(or at least one) of four shots has slightly different color temperature, what would happen? And what flashes are well known for consistent color temperature(except expensive ProFoto and Broncolor)?
Thanks!

Yes, this certainly can be an issue however the flash needs to be really bad to become a true dealbreaker. I have done multi & microstep with Elinchroms, Profoto and even Nikon SB's without trouble. Having said that the very stable Profoto D4 gave certainly the best results.

[fotometria gr]

" but in any case all I can report is that it's just not a tricky as you might read on the internet to use multishot". 

In fact I would say that it as easy as a long exposure single shot. It's exactly the same parameters of the set up that can ruin a long single shot, that have to be taken into account when doing multishot or microstep. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[Pics2]

Thank you all for the replies!

[Enda Cavanagh]

Except here in Ireland where you might have sun, rain and snow between each exposure

In fact I would say that it as easy as a long exposure single shot. It's exactly the same parameters of the set up that can ruin a long single shot, that have to be taken into account when doing multishot or microstep. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[fotometria gr]

Except here in Ireland where you might have sun, rain and snow between each exposure

Never noticed weather change ...in stills Enda! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[BobDavid]

I've been using Elinchrom RX strobes for doing multi-shot work with a CF39-MS. The Elinchroms are terrific and they are not quite as expensive as Broncolor.

[Pics2]

That's nice to hear that Elinchrom RX is capable of doing the job with MS Hasselblad, because its price is reasonable and it's great built.