How many Leica S2 cameras are in use right now?

[Chris Livsey]

Perhaps they need a fault so Leica can let slip an estimate.
We know around 30,000 M9 cameras are out there somewhere.
http://leicarumors.com/2011/08/18/leica-camera-ag-have-sold-30000-m9-cameras.aspx/

[Rob C]

How many Leicas (of all kinds) can sit on the head of a standard dressmaker's pin?

Rob C

[hasselbladfan]

I am currently having the same fear. It is a lot of money.

I am right now selling my Hasselblad film cameras and my collection of Leica R lenses to move digital MF.

And tough I like the S2 very much, I am afraid Leica will stop the S2 (just like they did with the R) if they cannot achieve enough sales.

[paratom]

I am currently having the same fear. It is a lot of money.

I am right now selling my Hasselblad film cameras and my collection of Leica R lenses to move digital MF.

And tough I like the S2 very much, I am afraid Leica will stop the S2 (just like they did with the R) if they cannot achieve enough sales.

Personally I dont think so.
They have sold much more than expected (at least thats what they say). And if I see how they work on firmware upgrades, bringing new lenses, etc etc it seems the S-System has a very high priority for Leica.

[hasselbladfan]

That's what I thought also when they introduced the Digital Back on the R9.

Let's hope this time they do.

Is it true that they still did not release the CS lenses?

[craigrudlin]

check with david at dale photo and digital in florida.

[EricWHiss]

The thing about the S2 is that if they did stop selling them, the prices for secondhand stuff would probably go up not down.  Leica collectors can get kind of nuts when the supply runs out.   

A different question, in part tongue in cheek, is how many S2's that are sold are actually used?

After Leica, dropped the R line while I was using the DMR after promising updates several times, I sort of dropped Leica in return.

  That said,  I did hold and shoot the S2 at CameraWest... great viewfinder. Felt nice in the hand..... But what's with that cheap toy motor sound on the auto focus?  It sounds like a toy car from China when it focuses, and the focus is about as fast as a screaming volkswagon bus.     That was a real disappointment considering the cost - $7000 for a lens?  You could set the lens to infinity, then try to focus on something close in the store and count the seconds it took to get there after you pressed the shutter.  "One thousand one, one thousand two...."    And it took several tries for the thing to lock in on focus.    The store salesman tried to explain that this was not normal behavior for the S2 and suggested something might be wrong with the lens or camera.   Okay so is that better?   I unfortunately know about leica service.... still doing estimates and approvals via regular mail. You have to wait for the estimate to come in the mail, then sign and put it in an envelope, stamp and return.   This was okay when people use to cross the country in a wagon, when they went back and forth to Europe in a boat instead of a plane.  Hey Leica, have you heard about the internet?

Well I don't care how many S2's are sold.  All I know is they are not going to sell one to me!   

[telyt]

The thing about the S2 is that if they did stop selling them, the prices for secondhand stuff would probably go up not down.  Leica collectors can get kind of nuts when the supply runs out.   

Users too.

   I unfortunately know about leica service.... still doing estimates and approvals via regular mail. You have to wait for the estimate to come in the mail, then sign and put it in an envelope, stamp and return.   This was okay when people use to cross the country in a wagon, when they went back and forth to Europe in a boat instead of a plane.  Hey Leica, have you heard about the internet?

My recent R service has been much more efficient than you're describing, and as I understand it the S2 service is much much faster.  And despite being discontined the DMR is still producing outstanding files and Leica is still servicing R equipment.

Leica has in the past suported older equipment much longer than other makers have, even long-discontinued models so I'm not worried.  The R system being discontinued means no new lenses or accessories, but that's OK, my wallet is happier that way   

[mtomalty]

[quote ]
 it seems the S-System has a very high priority for Leica.
[/quote]

Perhaps,their priority is based on a huge initial investment and ROI accountability.

Regardless, the camera produces beautiful files in a form factor that trumps most medium format options from a handling perspective.
My feeling,though, is that history will record that the S2 was the wrong product for the wrong company.  Time will tell.

Mark

[EricWHiss]

Doug,
I waited several months for Leica to replace the button on the back of my DMR, and on a separate trip almost as long for Leica to repair the film transport mechanism on the R8 body.   After selling the DMR, I waited for a similarly long time for Leica to repair a stiff focusing ring on my 80-200mm f/4 which I was using on my canon 5d2.    5 months average wait for service seems untenable to me but YMMV.    Yes the DMR does produce excellent files (at least at base ISO), ones that rival the 5D2 even with twice the pixel count.  No question about that.  The DMR files don't hold up to MF backs however and once I went to MF, I never looked back.   Will you move to the S2 after your DMR gives up? 
Eric

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I guess as many as Leica can make. Got the impression that Leica has a backlog.

Best regards
Erik

Everybody seem to like the handling, the design and obviously the lenses.

But I have never seen anybody use them ! None show up on Ebay.

If I ask a dealer, nobody seem to have sold more than 2-3 pieces since the introduction.

Is this correct?

Any insight here?

[telyt]

I waited several months for Leica to replace the button on the back of my DMR, and on a separate trip almost as long for Leica to repair the film transport mechanism on the R8 body.   After selling the DMR, I waited for a similarly long time for Leica to repair a stiff focusing ring on my 80-200mm f/4 which I was using on my canon 5d2.    5 months average wait for service seems untenable to me but YMMV.    Yes the DMR does produce excellent files (at least at base ISO), ones that rival the 5D2 even with twice the pixel count.  No question about that.  The DMR files don't hold up to MF backs however and once I went to MF, I never looked back.   Will you move to the S2 after your DMR gives up? 
Eric

My most recent Leica service was 1 year ago when I sent an R8 and DMR for service.  The DMR was refusing to shut off and the internal date/time battery was dead.  The camera returned in a few weeks in perfect working condition, the cost was about $125 and it returned with a spare battery (which is worth more than $125).

When the DMR is no longer practical to use I'll evaluate the replacement options.  The S2 is probably overkill for my needs but the form factor, user interface, file size and quality, weather sealing, viewfinder and lens quality are very tempting.  The system would need a native-mount long lens (the proposed 350mm f/3.5 would do), and an extension tube and a 1.4x extender would be very beneficial.  My evaluation will include lots of stuff that doesn't fit on a spec sheet, like handling in my typical field conditions, my willingness to carry it for miles in rough terrain, and my subjects' response to a large-diameter lens.  It may be more practical to use a full-frame (24mm x 36mm) body that can be fitted to the 280mm f/4 APO.  A highly responsive camera optimized for low-ISO color quality, with no AA filter, and a viewfinder suitable for manual focus would get my attention.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Just occured to me that the Sony NEX7 may be a camera matching your needs. You can mount it on almost any lens, and it has live view with high magnification. It also seems that it has a very weak AA-filter if any. It is higher crop factor than the DMR but I guess that matters little for long tele lens work.

Best regards
Erik

My most recent Leica service was 1 year ago when I sent an R8 and DMR for service.  The DMR was refusing to shut off and the internal date/time battery was dead.  The camera returned in a few weeks in perfect working condition, the cost was about $125 and it returned with a spare battery (which is worth more than $125).

When the DMR is no longer practical to use I'll evaluate the replacement options.  The S2 is probably overkill for my needs but the form factor, user interface, file size and quality, weather sealing, viewfinder and lens quality are very tempting.  The system would need a native-mount long lens (the proposed 350mm f/3.5 would do), and an extension tube and a 1.4x extender would be very beneficial.  My evaluation will include lots of stuff that doesn't fit on a spec sheet, like handling in my typical field conditions, my willingness to carry it for miles in rough terrain, and my subjects' response to a large-diameter lens.  It may be more practical to use a full-frame (24mm x 36mm) body that can be fitted to the 280mm f/4 APO.  A highly responsive camera optimized for low-ISO color quality, with no AA filter, and a viewfinder suitable for manual focus would get my attention.

[paratom]

Hi Eric,
when I tested the S2 one important factor was AF. Not so much speed but accurancy. Because when using the Hy6 I often found the AF less accurate than what my eyes could do with manual focus- and sometimes this was not accurate enough when shooting wide open.
In most conditions the AF of the (my) S2 is very accurate, and this is true for all my 4 lenses. I find this impressive because I have had AF accurancy problems with many DSLRs before, and even the DSLRs which worked fine needed fine adjustement for some of my lenses. (However there have been some firmware upgrades for lenses and body-so maybe it was worse when you tried the S2)
The S2 is also very well damped which allows pretty long exposure times.
And its weatherproof.
To summarize:
Good viewfinder, which lets me see the subject and judge the focus, a reliable AF (even if its loud I wonder if there is any MF camera which has a much faster focus?), very good lenses which are also great wide open, a body which is well damped and with a good user interface (this of course is a matter of taste), a very short delay when taking the image, very fast and good image review, and all this in a package which I can carry in bad weather. The camera went to service once (for a free upgrade of the OLED display) and was back in less then 2 weeks. (I have the "cheap" S2 version without any silver or gold service).
I have to mention though that my dealer has good contacts to Leica and I do live in Germany.
I dont want to promote that camera, it just seems we have different experience with Leica.
Regards,Tom

The thing about the S2 is that if they did stop selling them, the prices for secondhand stuff would probably go up not down.  Leica collectors can get kind of nuts when the supply runs out.   

A different question, in part tongue in cheek, is how many S2's that are sold are actually used?

After Leica, dropped the R line while I was using the DMR after promising updates several times, I sort of dropped Leica in return.

  That said,  I did hold and shoot the S2 at CameraWest... great viewfinder. Felt nice in the hand..... But what's with that cheap toy motor sound on the auto focus?  It sounds like a toy car from China when it focuses, and the focus is about as fast as a screaming volkswagon bus.     That was a real disappointment considering the cost - $7000 for a lens?  You could set the lens to infinity, then try to focus on something close in the store and count the seconds it took to get there after you pressed the shutter.  "One thousand one, one thousand two...."    And it took several tries for the thing to lock in on focus.    The store salesman tried to explain that this was not normal behavior for the S2 and suggested something might be wrong with the lens or camera.   Okay so is that better?   I unfortunately know about leica service.... still doing estimates and approvals via regular mail. You have to wait for the estimate to come in the mail, then sign and put it in an envelope, stamp and return.   This was okay when people use to cross the country in a wagon, when they went back and forth to Europe in a boat instead of a plane.  Hey Leica, have you heard about the internet?

Well I don't care how many S2's are sold.  All I know is they are not going to sell one to me!   

[telyt]

Just occured to me that the Sony NEX7 may be a camera matching your needs.

Yes it's certainly interesting.  I'd rather switch to a bigger sensor than the DMR, not smaller, and there are a few other details I'll not mention on this forum.  But a very interesting option which would be very high on my short list if I had to switch today.

[jackmacd]

I have been led to believe there are at least 1,000 possibly 1,500 S2s in the USA and the USA is about 20% of the global sales, so at least 5,000 S2s are  out there in the world. I use one. I bought mine from David Farkas who is the S2 expert dealer in the US, and I suspect he might be willing to loan you one to try for yourself. I have personally shot at one time or another with 9 other S2 owners, so we are not all that rare, we just don't post much here.  I guess that means I have worked with at least 1% of the owners in the US, and can assure you they are pleased with the system. One S2 owner lived 30 miles away before he moved to the other side of the globe.
I suspect S2s won't be on eBay much.
S2s are selling like crazy in China, where there isn't much of an issue with MF lens legacy. They don't post here either.

Many NYC pros are still renting S2 camera instead of buying, as they can just charge off the rental to the client. I know the big love of the fashion pros is a single modern S2 battery lasts forever, ( I get 800 shots per battery) and there is no need of a MF technician standing by for repairs. Looking through the viewfinder is a pleasure. No, the auto focus is not as fast as a sports oriented 35mm digital pro camera, but what MF camera is? The auto focus speed has not been an issue for my shots.

The S2 lens adaptor has helped some with both legacy issues and lack of every desired focus length available to date. The CS delay doesn't seem to be slowing sales although there will be pros who will wait for it. I have a S 120CS on order but using a regular 120mm in the meantime.

The worry about Leica dropping the S is limited. The company is making more profit than any time in it's history and is essentially privately owned by a German billionaire who had the desire to create a hell of a camera system from scratch. Sorry about the end of the R system, but when Canon went to the EOS mount they dropped many more photographers and Canon seems in hindsight to have made the right move. And what other company has had a mount for over 60 years like the M series?

If you want to see an example of how the S2 is to shoot, and users thoughts, go to the reddotforum.com
 That is really the only site that a lot of users post on.
Try this link
http://www.reddotforum.com/showthread.php/435-Omo-valley-ethiopia?p=1764#post1764
to see some very nice work.

[EricWHiss]

Hi Tom,
How was your skiing trip?
Thanks for the input on your decision to go with the S2.     Just for information -  The Hy6 has an AF offset function where you can calibrate the focus point of AF lenses individually and also the focus confirmation light for even older MF lenses too.   It's quite simple to perform and once done the AF is very accurate indeed.  But still I do prefer to focus with my eye and I have also calibrated my own focusing screen as well.    I don't see any problems with focus accuracy at all, however like most MF cameras the single center point is not enough.     

I did think the viewfinder on the S2 was very nice, but I also think that of the Hy6.  I really like the 45 degree prism and also like the loupe style finder as well that are available for the Hy6/AFi.  These are fantastic options to have.  If you haven't used the loupe finder, you would be amazed.    I also find it very comfortable to look down into both of these finders rather than hold up the camera in front of my face.   For that reason and I did not like the 90 degree prism much.

Glad to hear service turnaround is much faster for you in Germany.  That sounds like progress.

Regards,
Eric
 





 

Hi Eric,
when I tested the S2 one important factor was AF. Not so much speed but accurancy. Because when using the Hy6 I often found the AF less accurate than what my eyes could do with manual focus- and sometimes this was not accurate enough when shooting wide open.
In most conditions the AF of the (my) S2 is very accurate, and this is true for all my 4 lenses. I find this impressive because I have had AF accurancy problems with many DSLRs before, and even the DSLRs which worked fine needed fine adjustement for some of my lenses. (However there have been some firmware upgrades for lenses and body-so maybe it was worse when you tried the S2)
The S2 is also very well damped which allows pretty long exposure times.
And its weatherproof.
To summarize:
Good viewfinder, which lets me see the subject and judge the focus, a reliable AF (even if its loud I wonder if there is any MF camera which has a much faster focus?), very good lenses which are also great wide open, a body which is well damped and with a good user interface (this of course is a matter of taste), a very short delay when taking the image, very fast and good image review, and all this in a package which I can carry in bad weather. The camera went to service once (for a free upgrade of the OLED display) and was back in less then 2 weeks. (I have the "cheap" S2 version without any silver or gold service).
I have to mention though that my dealer has good contacts to Leica and I do live in Germany.
I dont want to promote that camera, it just seems we have different experience with Leica.
Regards,Tom

[yaya]

But I have never seen anybody use them ! None show up on Ebay.

There's at least 1 on Australia, saw it today....

[Rob C]

With a toy tripod, he might as well be using a cellphone!

If that's a Leica, then it's another good reason to stay with the 500C/M cameras: at least they looked good!

Rob C

[paratom]

Hi Eric,
thank you skiing was really a nice trip.
Of course the Hy6 viewfinder is at least as nice as the S2 viewfinder, if not better.
Ideally I would have kept the Hy6 when buying the S2 but I could not justify to own both (hard enough to justify one of them).
But I do have a 6008i2 for those times when I want the WLF feeling, and also a 45degree finder for it.
Regards,Tom

Hi Tom,
How was your skiing trip?
Thanks for the input on your decision to go with the S2.     Just for information -  The Hy6 has an AF offset function where you can calibrate the focus point of AF lenses individually and also the focus confirmation light for even older MF lenses too.   It's quite simple to perform and once done the AF is very accurate indeed.  But still I do prefer to focus with my eye and I have also calibrated my own focusing screen as well.    I don't see any problems with focus accuracy at all, however like most MF cameras the single center point is not enough.     

I did think the viewfinder on the S2 was very nice, but I also think that of the Hy6.  I really like the 45 degree prism and also like the loupe style finder as well that are available for the Hy6/AFi.  These are fantastic options to have.  If you haven't used the loupe finder, you would be amazed.    I also find it very comfortable to look down into both of these finders rather than hold up the camera in front of my face.   For that reason and I did not like the 90 degree prism much.

Glad to hear service turnaround is much faster for you in Germany.  That sounds like progress.

Regards,
Eric