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Author Topic: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share  (Read 10501 times)

sbernthal

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Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« on: January 16, 2012, 10:48:55 am »

My friend went to see a dealer somewhere in Canada (I will not name the city, not to reveal his identity).
He asked the dealer about Hasselblad and Phase One systems.
The dealer told him that P1 sold some units before, but that for a while now almost all the sales are for Hasselblad.

Does anyone have any information about the current market share of Hasselblad vs. Phase One?
Also, what is the meaning of the new declaration of the new combined Mamiya/Leaf brand?
It is also worth noting the the volume of eBay trade of Mamiya D lenses has dropped to almost nothing in the past year.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:50:35 am by sbernthal »
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JV

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2012, 11:30:08 am »

I also asked the same question about 4-5 months ago to a dealer on the East Coast of the US who sells both brands.  I will also not reveal the dealer nor the city.  He estimated that both brands were very close.  He thought about 40-45% of the sales was Phase One, 35-40% of the sales Hasselblad.  He also mentioned that 2010 was Hasselblad (H4D) and that 2011 was Phase One (IQ).  Perhaps that might have changed during the last months of 2011.  Hasselblad had some pretty agressive upgrade promotions going on.  One thing I know for sure, the impression that you sometimes get when reading this forum or GetDPI that Phase One owns the MFDB systems market is incorrect.  I explicitly mention systems because for the standalone digital back market that is of course true.  Phase One/Leaf remain, Hasselblad is gone, Sinar is of no relevance. 
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ondebanks

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2012, 11:45:53 am »

It is also worth noting the the volume of eBay trade of Mamiya D lenses has dropped to almost nothing in the past year.


Interesting. Do you know about the volume of eBay trade of Hasselblad H lenses?
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sbernthal

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 11:59:19 am »

Interesting. Do you know about the volume of eBay trade of Hasselblad H lenses?

Yes, Hasselblad numbers appear much higher on eBay.
Last year there was much more traffic with Mamiya D/AFD/Leaf/Phase One backs.

It does seem that on the internet forums P1 has a very strong showing, but my feeling is that pros in North America are using Hasselblad primarily. I would be very interested to know if that is true.
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yaya

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 02:22:33 pm »

Yes, Hasselblad numbers appear much higher on eBay.
Last year there was much more traffic with Mamiya D/AFD/Leaf/Phase One backs.

eBay traffic could mean that many people were selling their older Phase/ Mamiya/ Leaf models so that the can get new ones

If you see more H traffic this year (if 16 days are anything to judge by...) then it could mean the same i.e. people are selling their H so that they can get new Phase/ Mamiya/ Leaf kit  ;)

It's a known secret that 2011 was the best year ever for Team Phase One (Phase One and Mamiya Leaf)

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sbernthal

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2012, 02:24:31 pm »

It's a known secret that 2011 was the best year ever for Team Phase One (Phase One and Mamiya Leaf)

Can you quote any numbers?
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hasselbladfan

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 04:21:48 am »

Does anybody know if the Leica S2 is selling at all?
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telyt

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 07:42:07 am »

Does anybody know if the Leica S2 is selling at all?

Yes it is, several users are posting photos on getdpi.
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craigrudlin

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 09:21:21 am »

The leica S2 is selling well enough that there is usually a backlog of orders,
and some lenses remain in short supply.  Most of the S2 users are posting
on getdpi or on reddotforum.com

Incidentally, the images are extremely good with marked microcontrast, and
the camera is a pleasure ergonomically.
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ondebanks

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2012, 11:19:04 am »

Phase sent me an email today offering me a chance to win an IQ140 camera system with a value of 19.990 Euro.

OK, competition is hot and cost cutting is key, but under 20 Euro for a complete MFD system? There again it does include the DF.



Doesn't Pentax beat that price for a complete MFD system by a factor of 2? I see them for €10,799 with lens. Way better sensor than the IQ140's too - high ISO, long exposures.

Ray
 - in a particularly good mood, as I snagged an FA401 (Mamiya 645AFD angle finder) on KEH for $69 today. B&H sells them for $449, Peartree for UK£405 + VAT so > £500, Calumet.de for €458.
Things are looking up! (but I won't be any more, thanks to the FA401! :D)
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nightfire

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 11:54:30 am »

I recently researched buying into the Leica M9 system. Bodies were available virtually everywhere but I couldn't find a retailer in the UK who had any of the lenses I was interested in. I gave up.

For the common focal lengths, you could pick up Zeiss lenses to have something to start with right away, and sell the ZM lenses later as you get the Leica lenses.
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ondebanks

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 05:26:28 pm »

The value quoted was 19.990 Euro, not 19,990 Euro.

Ah - I get the joke now. Reading the "continental" notation for thousands as a decimal point. Where'd we be without cultural differences?
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dfarkas

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 01:18:11 pm »

True, and I did consider doing so, but ultimately decided that dealing with a manufacturer who couldn't deliver was lunacy. 

Leica is producing and delivering, but the demand is so high that availability is extremely slim worldwide. In fact, last year was Leica's best year ever since they went public over 20 years ago. In order to post the kind of numbers they did you have to manufacture and ship a lot of product. Leica is currently constructing a new factory that at about 300,000 sq ft will be double the size of the existing facility in Solms. It is slated to be completed by Spring 2013 and should help to meet the incredibly high (and growing) demand for Leica products.

David
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2012, 01:50:40 pm »

That is as maybe but from the buyers point of view, today, I can see why he said it.

Certainly I would be very wary as a professional buying into a system with almost nothing in local rental chains and where buying a new camera or lens because yours just died is not only not a local or even national option but in many cases a 6 month waiting time. The cost of having sufficient backup in this case is just too high compared to the possible advantages over the competition even if you could find enough on the ground to buy the backup in the first place.

If a Canon, Nikon, Mamiya or Hasselblad lens dies I can have another one the same day in major cities and next morning for certain elsewhere in the vast majority of cases. If I don't want to buy then the same is true for rental. That's the kind of protection I need when the cost of redoing a shoot is more than my reputation or bank account can afford. Of course if another system would do the job then you have to ask yourself why you needed the premium luxury brand in the first place. If it won't do the job then it's not an replacement.

Georgous perhaps, superior perhaps, a system for a professional who needs to make who needs those advantages (to the tune of paying the premium) to make a living? I'd be very wary of that for myself.
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David Watson

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2012, 02:59:03 pm »

I don't disagree with any of these posts.  Superlative service AND image quality from my Hasselblad system.  Superlative image quality and portability from my M9 setup.  Service and support however sucks big time. 

My 6 month old 35mm f2 Summicron started to fall apart and I therefore sent it to the address in the UK as per the guarantee document.  Just to be on the safe side i  emailed Leica to say it was on its way and a day or so later got a message to say that I shouldn't have done that.  All repairs are now handled in Germany and Milton Keynes will just return my parcel.  Okay, I said, why can't they simply send it on to Solms?  No can do and don't know why.  Okay I said when it comes back I will send it to Leica's office in London.  Guess what?  No can do.  On receipt of a faxed or emailed form Leica UK said that they would arrange collection (this is where I wait in all day and the driver does not turn up!) but I absolutely cannot send it to their London office - too risky!!!

Further discussion elicited the response that I could bring the lens in and they would then send it to Solms.  So I gave up a day, got a train to London, and delivered the lens. I was told to expect to wait 4-6 weeks for its return. At that point, to be fair, they did say that they would lend me a lens whilst mine was being repaired.

5 weeks later I got an email to say my lens was back.  Great please send it.  Sorry - you guessed it - no can do.  You have to get in the train and travel back to London and pick it up.

It seems very clear to me that if you are relying on your camera equipment to earn a living do not under any circumstance rely on Leica!!!

Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon and Phamiya all understand that the camera and its lenses are simply a tool that needs to work and if it doesn't can be replaced quickly and easily.  Leica don't get that point IMO and are therefore TOTALLY unsuited to professional use.

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dfarkas

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2012, 04:05:11 pm »

I don't disagree with any of these posts.  Superlative service AND image quality from my Hasselblad system.  Superlative image quality and portability from my M9 setup.  Service and support however sucks big time. 

My 6 month old 35mm f2 Summicron started to fall apart and I therefore sent it to the address in the UK as per the guarantee document.  Just to be on the safe side i  emailed Leica to say it was on its way and a day or so later got a message to say that I shouldn't have done that.  All repairs are now handled in Germany and Milton Keynes will just return my parcel.  Okay, I said, why can't they simply send it on to Solms?  No can do and don't know why.  Okay I said when it comes back I will send it to Leica's office in London.  Guess what?  No can do.  On receipt of a faxed or emailed form Leica UK said that they would arrange collection (this is where I wait in all day and the driver does not turn up!) but I absolutely cannot send it to their London office - too risky!!!

Further discussion elicited the response that I could bring the lens in and they would then send it to Solms.  So I gave up a day, got a train to London, and delivered the lens. I was told to expect to wait 4-6 weeks for its return. At that point, to be fair, they did say that they would lend me a lens whilst mine was being repaired.

5 weeks later I got an email to say my lens was back.  Great please send it.  Sorry - you guessed it - no can do.  You have to get in the train and travel back to London and pick it up.

It seems very clear to me that if you are relying on your camera equipment to earn a living do not under any circumstance rely on Leica!!!

Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon and Phamiya all understand that the camera and its lenses are simply a tool that needs to work and if it doesn't can be replaced quickly and easily.  Leica don't get that point IMO and are therefore TOTALLY unsuited to professional use.




David,

This sounds like a pretty horrible experience! I don't blame you for being upset and disappointed. Luckily, in the US, all M service (cameras and lenses) is now handled at Leica Service in New Jersey. They invested quite a lot to build a clean room, install the necessary testing equipment and train a suitable staff. The result has been much faster turnaround times (usually 2-3 weeks on average).

S2 bodies and lenses still need to go to Germany for repair. For those with a Platinum Service Package, a loaner camera will be provided during the entire duration of the repair. The loaner is sent for next day delivery.

Also, your dealer might have been able to take some of the inconvenience out of your service experience. A dealer can make all the arrangements, take care of transportation and communicate with service to ensure a smooth repair process and quick turnaround.

David
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David Farkas
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2012, 06:40:00 pm »

Doesn't Pentax beat that price for a complete MFD system by a factor of 2? I see them for €10,799 with lens. Way better sensor than the IQ140's too - high ISO, long exposures.

For what it is worth, the 645D body can be bought in Japan off the shelf without negotiation for exactly 7,000 Euros, sometimes as little as 6,500 Euros. I expect that price to drop a bit once the 36MP class DSLRs are released, but it is unlikely to go below 6,000 Euros.

Cheers,
Bernard

Willow Photography

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Re: Phase One vs. Hasselblad Market Share
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2012, 04:02:54 pm »

Doesn't Pentax beat that price for a complete MFD system by a factor of 2? I see them for €10,799 with lens. Way better sensor than the IQ140's too - high ISO, long exposures.

Ray
 - in a particularly good mood, as I snagged an FA401 (Mamiya 645AFD angle finder) on KEH for $69 today. B&H sells them for $449, Peartree for UK£405 + VAT so > £500, Calumet.de for €458.
Things are looking up! (but I won't be any more, thanks to the FA401! :D)

Nobody can have missed that you have a Pentax  ;D, seeing all your posts about it.
But have you tested an IQ140???

You are so sure the Pentax is way better than the IQ140, that you must
have tested it in any way.

   
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