Canvas/Paper Coatings Summary?

[Mike Guilbault]

I've been reading thread about Timeless, Glamour II and other coatings for canvas and paper.  These are the two that I hear about most, but I'd also like to know what else is available, especially in Canada.  If there isn't something already available, could we start a thread listing the different coatings with their pros and cons so it's all in one place?  I'm sure it would help a lot of us, and especially new printers. If there's something like that already available... where?

[Luca Ragogna]

I use Premier Imaging's Eco Print Shield (satin), and BC's Timeless(Gloss, Satin, and Matte). They're both great but I found the Eco Print Shield Satin was a more subtle finish and not quite what I wanted so I've pretty much settled on the BC Timeless. I'm ok with the price, it lays down nice with the sprayer and looks great. Both the Eco Print Shield and the Timeless are water based and with the HVLP sprayer there's very little mess. I can set up a simple spray booth with a bit of ventilation in the basement and not worry about the wife complaining about the smell or worry about killing brain cells (I still wear a mask when I spray, that's just common sense).

Early on I also tried Golden's Archival Aerosol varnish but found it very hard to get it even with the spray can and the fumes were unbearable. The finish looked plasticy and wasn't to my liking.

I tried Krylon's protective varnish too which worked great great, sprayed on fairly evenly but again the fumes were pretty bad and the archival qualities weren't very well documented. Also, only available in a spray can and I didn't like creating that much waste. Again, the finish looked plasticy.

I also tried Premier Imaging's Print Shield, which is their lacquer-based product. It goes on amazingly evenly. I had an area that almost had a run and the product dried right up and the heavy area disappeared. The finish is like uncoated canvas, it's pretty much invisible. I didn't like the heavy fumes from the lacquer.

[langier]

I'm using the Clear Star LL semi-gloss and dilute it with 20% distilled water.

If I have enough large canvas prints, I'll put it through the Daige EZ Glide. Otherwise, I'll foam-roll it on my hand.

For smaller runs, I'll hand roll the liquid laminate. You'll got to put it on generously and keep the roller going until you get an even sheen. You'll really need to soak in the coating to keep it even. With hand rolling, you'll have a good chance of picking up some debris unless you are very meticulous with your work area.

For the Daige, I've found the best results by coating and drying and then coating a second time. The surface after the second coating is just about perfect!

In ether case, I've coated from about 10-30+ degrees (about 50-85+). It seems to work fine, but I prefer warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer!

No matter how you coat, give yourself an inch or more margin on the prints for drips, handling, slop, etc.

[Mike Guilbault]

I took a look at Eco Print Shield's site last night and seems to be pretty much the same as Timeless. Luca... when you said it was a more subtle finish, I'm not sure what you mean by that?  Are either EPS or Timeless available through Canadian sources? How about Clear Star?

Any comments on the pros and cons of HVLP vs Roll-on?  The Roll-on seems less work and more economical. I would think it would also provide a more even surface.

[StuNY]

I'm been using Eco Print Shield on Canvas with a roller (doing 10 prints right now actually- waiting for first coat to dry). I have not seen results obtained with spraying but find no reason to investigate further at this point. Rolling is very easy, very uniform and very fast to set up/clean up- just rinse rollers etc. in water for later reuse. I do 2 coats of gloss, then a coat of satin and am very happy with the results hanging on my walls.

[bill t.]

Any comments on the pros and cons of HVLP vs Roll-on?  The Roll-on seems less work and more economical. I would think it would also provide a more even surface.

When you have to coat more than about 6 square feet of canvas, IMHO HVLP is much faster than roll-on, even when you factor in the mandatory gun-cleaning step.

Also, I think it takes quite a bit more paint to roll a given canvas than to spray it.  You will pretty much always lose the 2 to 3 ounces of paint that is absorbed by roller, which is about the amount of paint needed to coat a 30 x 40 print.  Also it seems like it takes a thicker coat to get a really even coverage with rolling, but maybe I'm just a big galoot at the coating table.  Paint loss due to using an HVLP can be kept to less than an ounce per session.  And for some reason most of the folks I have seen roll wind up with big paint puddles on the outskirts of the print, which not only wastes paint but also sets up a crud-based booby trap for the next session.

Also, I'm about 500 for 500 on HVLP  panels for the last year, and I can assure you the ratio would be far less impressive had I been rolling.  I have scarcely had to remove so much as a cat hair from just a few of the (vertically sprayed) HVLP canvases, but just about every time I try to roll a canvas it attracts half the available dust in the building.

And HVLP gives a MUCH more even surface!  For those that like a somewhat classic, bumpy varnished canvas look that may or may not be a good thing, but you can always get that later by brushing on some thickish coating while pretending you are van Gogh, or by using one of the many texturizing gels available from framing and art suppliers.

[KenBabcock]

  Are either EPS or Timeless available through Canadian sources? How about Clear Star?

If I told you all my secrets where things are available in Canada (Ontario for us), I'd have to have you whacked!   

You can find Eco Print Shield at Vistek.  It's what I use.  Timeless, and all other BC products are available in Markham at Amplis Foto.

[KenBabcock]

Oh, and my foam rollers are placed into a Ziploc bag ready to use the next day so I don't lose the couple of ounces of product by washing the rollers.  They usually last me a few weeks before needing to be replaced by doing this.

[Mike Guilbault]

Thanks for the sources Ken.  I was pretty sure I could get Eco at Vistek but hadn't checked yet, but had no idea Amplis carried the BC products.

Guess I can always try rolling first and if things pick up a lot will look into the HVLP. thanks guys.

[KenBabcock]

No problem, Mike.

Linda Eyskoot is the person you want to talk to at Amplis about the BC products.  As far as I know, and I have researched thoroughly over the years, this Amplis location in Markham is the only retailer in Ontario that carries BC products.

[chez]

You can pick up BC products at vistek also.

[KenBabcock]

Vistek doesn't carry much BC at all.  All I've ever seen is a bit of G2 at Vistek.  Amplis in Markham carries the entire BC line, including canvas and paper, which Vistek (at least the one I go to) does not.

[Luca Ragogna]

You can pick up BC products at vistek also.

Yeah, but then you have to pay retail. No thanks.

Amplis in Markham carries the entire BC line...

Amplis mostly has the entire BC line (sometimes). I'm waiting for a roll of Ilford smooth gloss (4 days now) because they don't have BC Vibrance Gloss right now, I've also had to wait 2+ weeks for a roll of Lyve and I had to drive down to Vistek downtown to buy the last quart of Timeless gloss when Amplis was out and couldn't tell me when they'd be restocked. I think Linda is great over there but I keep an extra roll of canvas around just in case now and I've profiled a few "replacement" papers for when Amplis is dry. I really wish BC, Hahnemule and Ilford had a second distributor in Canada, I can't have client orders sitting around for 2 weeks while I'm waiting for stock to show up.

[chez]

Yeah, but then you have to pay retail. No thanks.

Amplis mostly has the entire BC line (sometimes). I'm waiting for a roll of Ilford smooth gloss (4 days now) because they don't have BC Vibrance Gloss right now, I've also had to wait 2+ weeks for a roll of Lyve and I had to drive down to Vistek downtown to buy the last quart of Timeless gloss when Amplis was out and couldn't tell me when they'd be restocked. I think Linda is great over there but I keep an extra roll of canvas around just in case now and I've profiled a few "replacement" papers for when Amplis is dry. I really wish BC, Hahnemule and Ilford had a second distributor in Canada, I can't have client orders sitting around for 2 weeks while I'm waiting for stock to show up.

And there lies the problem with Amplis. Yes, they carry all the BC line, but stock very little. I've been caught a few times waiting upwards to 1 month for my entire order to be filled. Prices are good...but stocking sucks. I've had to resort to Vistek on some occasions and they had the product in stock and in my hands within 3 days.

[Luca Ragogna]

And there lies the problem with Amplis. Yes, they carry all the BC line, but stock very little. I've been caught a few times waiting upwards to 1 month for my entire order to be filled. Prices are good...but stocking sucks. I've had to resort to Vistek on some occasions and they had the product in stock and in my hands within 3 days.

Ok, but you realize that Vistek gets their BC product from Amplis, right? So if Vistek happens to have what I need, great. Otherwise they're waiting on Amplis just like me. You can't use BC in Canada without a backup plan. Also, $160 for a gallon of Timeless is bullshit. I can't price competitively when I have to pay retail for raw material.

[KenBabcock]

How many of us actually live in this area?  I'm in Guelph.  Would it make sense perhaps for those of us in the GTA or Southwestern Ontario area to perhaps pool orders together directly to BC?  Have them ship it to US Address and then one of us cross the border to pick it up and bring it back?

I don't use BC exclusively, but I'm still looking for a permanent replacement to Epson Premium.  I just haven't chose Lyve to replace the Epson due to cost.  But if we pool together and order we would get a discount.  Place a monthly order perhaps?

What do you guys think?

[Luca Ragogna]

The price from Amplis is pretty close to buying from BC directly and they have the same quantity discounts. Amplis really isn't that bad I'm just saying to order canvas when you're down to 1 roll rather than when you actually need it.

[Luca Ragogna]

I took a look at Eco Print Shield's site last night and seems to be pretty much the same as Timeless. Luca... when you said it was a more subtle finish, I'm not sure what you mean by that?  Are either EPS or Timeless available through Canadian sources? How about Clear Star?

By subtle, I mean that EPS disappears. The satin finish looks almost like unvarnished canvas. It's hard to tell that it's been sprayed at all. With Timeless Satin the varnish increases contrast and makes the image "pop". The effect is lessened with the Timeless matte and enhanced with the gloss.

[Mike Guilbault]

Ahhh.. thanks Luca.  I think I'm going to have to try both regardless.

[bill t.]

If you are coming to canvas via a glossy media, you will probably visually like the glossy canvas coatings over the satin or matte variations.  Gloss pops up the apparent contrast quite a bit compared to matte.  Or rather, by virtue of preventing ambient light hazing in the darker matte-surfaced tones it pushes down the perceived density of those dark areas thereby increasing apparent contrast.  The effect of coating is to expand the overall contrast buy mainly in the dark direction.

FWIW relatively glossy canvas prints looks quite a bit different when wrapped versus mounted.

The ripple and visible bends in gallery wrapped canvases show up glossy highlights, and so you are better off with a coating towards the matte side of things when wrapping.  The effect can be kinda plastique under hard lighting.  But the same glossy canvas when mounted flat will not suffer those highlights and will generally look a lot richer than the matte variety and would be most people's first choice when seen side by side, or so think I.  That's one reason why I prefer mounting to wrapping.

Also FWIW, the water-based glossy coatings I have seen create a surface that is a lot like what you would call satin on a paper print.  The only way I know to get a really, truly high gloss coat on canvas is to use a solvent based spray like some of the spray cans down at Lowes that I use for rapidly evaluating test strips.

And how you apply the coatings and the texture of the canvas have almost as much to do with the finish quality as what the label says.  For instance GlamourII Gloss on fine textured canvas like Fredrix 777 is moderately glossy, but on heavy textures like Lyve it's more on the matte side of satin.  On medium texture canvases like Lexjet Sunset Select Matte you can apply thick gloss coats for a gloss look, or thinner coats for a satin or almost matte look, without mixing in any matte coating at all.  Canvas is not simple.