New to MF world have a couple of questions

[photo365]

Currently shoot FF with a Canon 5D MKII and have always intrigued by the MF world. Obviously price is a HUGE factor when entering this arena. I found a  Mamiya 645AFD SLR w/16 Mega Pixel Kodak Pro Back for around $3500.00. this is an older back but has under 5,000 images taken on it. My questions are:

1) Is this a decent deal
2)  will I see a noticeable difference in IQ from my 5DMKII?
3) any other opinions and things I should consider.

Thanks in advance

[fotometria gr]

Currently shoot FF with a Canon 5D MKII and have always intrigued by the MF world. Obviously price is a HUGE factor when entering this arena. I found a  Mamiya 645AFD SLR w/16 Mega Pixel Kodak Pro Back for around $3500.00. this is an older back but has under 5,000 images taken on it. My questions are:

1) Is this a decent deal
2)  will I see a noticeable difference in IQ from my 5DMKII?
3) any other opinions and things I should consider.

Thanks in advance

You should be able to purchase a Mamiya (or Contax645), std lens, film back (very important) and a 22mpx (36x48 or 37x49mm) MFDB for 4000 or so..., I would prefer this by a good margin. At base ISO, your DSLR doesn't stand a chance. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[fredjeang]

Hi,

Your Canon has more resolution, considering you are pointing an old back. Those are quite good. Think that the pixel density is much lower and at based isos, no AA you'll have a great file quality.
But don't expect a stellar difference with the 5D2 because the Kodak back is outdated.
That's only relevant if you print and you're a pixel maniac.

Also, you do not give any infos on your needs-shooting styles.

You should consider many factors when it comes to move to MF IMO.

- You really need to point on heavy expensive artillery to start to smile otherwise it makes little sense because FF dslrs (and non FF) have progressed really a lot those latest years. The Mamiya body is not a Contax or a Blad, it's well...Mamiya...

- You will need to tether (welcome)

- High isos are usuable

- you'll need to invest in glass from scratch

- you'll need more investment in light gear

- you'll need more muscles to carry the all circus, very good tripod too.

- in terms of IQ, in print, you won't really see, with this back, a noticiable difference compared to the Canon. More pleasant intermediate tones is all about you should expect.
Maybe a little bit more precision in the far details of the scene, in the patterns to be fair. Nothing crazy, no "whao" factor.

You'd need to go 30-40 and above so it makes more sense.

Try to get infos on this back about moire.

[amsp]

1) Is this a decent deal
2)  will I see a noticeable difference in IQ from my 5DMKII?
3) any other opinions and things I should consider.

Thanks in advance

1) No, it's an outdated back with a smaller square chip and it's no longer supported by the manufacturer, so any repairs might be tricky/impossible.
2) No, your 5D is an overall better camera.
3) Buy a FF 22mp or newer if you want to step up from your 5D, like a P25 or Leaf Aptus 22. Buy it in Mamiya mount and you'll have access to plenty of bodies and cheap lenses on the used market.

[fotometria gr]

1) No, it's an outdated back with a smaller square chip and it's no longer supported by the manufacturer, so any repairs might be tricky/impossible.
2) No, your 5D is an overall better camera.
3) Buy a FF 22mp or newer if you want to step up from your 5D, like a P25 or Leaf Aptus 22. Buy it in Mamiya mount and you'll have access to plenty of bodies and cheap lenses on the used market.

++1. Sinarback Emotion and Imacon 132 or Hasselblad CF22 should not be ignored, they offer interchangeable adapters which is pretty nice. Cheap glass is widely availiable by CZJ  (Carl Zeiss Jena) for the Pentacon 6 mount and can be used via an inexpensive adapter (very sturdy-no tolerance), they have stop down button build on them (very handy), a set of 50mm flektogon + 120mm biometrar + 180mm sonnar should be at around 800 for the lot, if carefully selected (there is some sample variation) by an experienced fellow photographer of yours, you are about ...."a breath from the top of the mountain". Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. All the above also apply for the Contax 645 as well, you may consider that the ...breath is smaller if chosen.

[fredjeang]

1) No, it's an outdated back with a smaller square chip and it's no longer supported by the manufacturer, so any repairs might be tricky/impossible.
2) No, your 5D is an overall better camera.
3) Buy a FF 22mp or newer if you want to step up from your 5D, like a P25 or Leaf Aptus 22. Buy it in Mamiya mount and you'll have access to plenty of bodies and cheap lenses on the used market.

?
I ignore there was a 22mp full frame.

Wasn't the P65 the first real FF ?

[ced]

Look for a used Aptus22 or higher mpx back there are a few floating around for a good price.

[fotometria gr]

?
I ignore there was a 22mp full frame.

Wasn't the P65 the first real FF ?

Oh come on! 1.1x isn't that much, P65 is out of his budget and this is well off the OP. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

[fredjeang]

Ok, I'm sort of teasing, but hey, full frame is full frame. (I was honest when I asked the question. When I read the amsp post, I really asked myself if there were a FF before the P65, because after all, I could have ignored it).

In the bargain side I'd go for a Contax body. They are very affordable here and they take everything.

Leaf backs are my favorite.

There was also this discontinued Sinar system that looked like a big dslr,  (can't remember the name). It was a great system. I almost buy one years ago and changed my mind for Canon.

I remember, it was called the M or m system.

[Anders_HK]

Buy a FF 22mp or newer if you want to step up from your 5D, like a P25 or Leaf Aptus 22.

Leaf upgraded Aptus 22 to current Aptus-II 5 but the image quality from them are same. Phase One upgraded P25 to P25+ and image quality improved. Thus you can perhaps find better choice and perhaps better price for Aptus 22 (Leaf tend to be more competitive..  ).

Also worth considering are Aptus 28 which is one generation newer sensor design and implementation, hence slight improved image quality. It is a 33x44mm sensor, while the above are 36mmx48mm sensors, thus all are cropped sensors with not much difference, except in price. You may well find Aptus 65 cheaper since people tend to pass it buy for being slight smaller than the 36x48mm CROP sensors. It is identical sensor as Aptus 75 which prior was top of line, except slight smaller crop. Price was the deciding factor when I purchased my Aptus 65 some years back.

Generation of backs for Leaf were (based on sensor generations);
22MP
28MP, 33MP
40MP, 56MP
80MP

Image quality between 22MP and 28/33MP backs do not differ much except slight higher ISO on 28/33MP. 56MP was an evolutionary improvement to the 28MP. I now use the 80MP and find the image quality significant improved to Aptus 65 in better colors finer gradation of colors, better shadow response, DR and that the files are also simpler to process due to these. BUT it depends what you shoot and if you need those improvements. I am sure there will be a 100MP or more that improves more in next few years. So what? Even the 22MP can produce stellar images. Prior I also had ZD which uses same sensor as the 22MP Leafs, but I would not recommend ZD. Implementation is not as proper made, and around 2007 it also had problems.

I would recommend buying from a Leaf/Phase One dealer which gives some warranty and support. I do not know the Hasselblads much, but if helps I am Swedish with Hasselblad in my hometown Goteborg. My choice was Leaf. Amongst reasons that Haselblad has a closed system. All Leaf sensors are also made by Dalsa and have a different (better?) character of the images. Phase One and Hasselblad sensors are made by Kodak, except for the newest Phase One backs of 40 MP, 60MP and 80MP. Add to this the large 6x7 cm screen on Leaf, also in my Aptus 65 it was excellent tool, and remain largest in the business.

I hope helps.

Best regards
Anders

[edwinb]

Ok, I'm sort of teasing, but hey, full frame is full frame. (I was honest when I asked the question. When I read the amsp post, I really asked myself if there were a FF before the P65, because after all, I could have ignored it).

In the bargain side I'd go for a Contax body. They are very affordable here and they take everything.

Leaf backs are my favorite.

There was also this discontinued Sinar system that looked like a big dslr,  (can't remember the name). It was a great system. I almost buy one years ago and changed my mind for Canon.

I remember, it was called the M or m system.

The sinar M camera is also still used as a shutter for the P3/P2 systems and gives sterling service in that application as a camera however it is very large and heavy,  it needs a tripod. nice exploded diagram showing the options here

[David Watson]

You should also consider a used Hasselblad H3D-22.  I recently sold mine with an 80mm lens in perfect order for under £4000. 

A good source of guaranteed used Hasselblad digital is here.

http://www.procentre.co.uk/Secondhand/hasselblad_digital.html

Procentre is a Hasselblad subsidiary and they a used H3D-39 for £4495

[David Watson]

AS another option to get you started the 503CW with a digital back is a loa cost and attractive option given the large number of Hasselblad accessories available and the variety of upgrade options for the back.  Dale Photographic in the UK have an excellent starter pack which is well priced here:

http://www.dalephotographic.co.uk/mall/productpage.cfm/DalePhotographicOnline/_29340%2029297/142530/29340%2029297%20Used%20Hasselblad%20503CW%2C%20CFV%2C%2060mm%20%2B%20120mm

[ondebanks]

1) No, it's an outdated back with a smaller square chip and it's no longer supported by the manufacturer, so any repairs might be tricky/impossible.
2) No, your 5D is an overall better camera.
3) Buy a FF 22mp or newer if you want to step up from your 5D, like a P25 or Leaf Aptus 22. Buy it in Mamiya mount and you'll have access to plenty of bodies and cheap lenses on the used market.

It seems that everyone is saying no...but then they're recommending various 22MP backs which are only 1/3 greater in sensor size and pixel count, and of the same 9-micron CCD design generation, but twice as expensive! That advice, to the OP who is up front about being budget limited, doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, some advice is plain factually wrong:
"You will need to tether" - no, that was the whole point of the Kodak DCS 645 series: they broke free from the obligation to tether, whether it be to a computer or to a bulky ImageBank hanging off yourself, and gave self-contained DSLR-like operation: CF card, Li-Ion battery, colour LCD display. (But they still support tethering for those who want it).
"any repairs might be tricky/impossible" - no, Midwest Camera Repair have all the parts (very cheaply) and servicing (ditto).

As someone who actually has both the 5DII and the Kodak-Mamiya combo, I say (a qualified) yes - I already laid out my arguments in favour of the Kodak-Mamiya combo to the OP, plus many sample photos, including Infrared, when he posted the same question on Pnet. Have a look.

Ray