LR4: potentially confusing terminology between Basic & Tone Curve palettes

[luxborealis]

Does anyone else find it confusing that LR4PB uses different but very similar terminology to describe the adjustments in the Basic and Tone Curve palettes?

It seems to me that "Whites" in Basic maps to a similar histogram region as "Highlights" in Tone Curve; whereas "Highlights" in Basic would map to "Lights" in Tone Curve; "Shadows" in Basic to "Darks" in Tone Curve and "Blacks" in Basic to "Shadows" in tone Curve.

I realise that there are "under-thehood" differences since in the Basic palette each slider is more directly tied to a specific region of the histogram, but to call a similar region "Whites" in one and "Highlights" in the other when there is already a "Highlights" in the former comes across as being unnecessarily confusing. Or am I the only one so easily confused?

[luxborealis]

After 159 reads - I guess no one else finds the terminology confusing.

The idea that the Basic adjustments work differently than the Tone Curve adjustments is understandable as LR4 has moved to Tone Mapping (thus, the Basic adjustments are tied to much tighter "zones" within the histogram, the Tone Curve adjustments are not). It's the terminology - the words used to describe each "zone" - that seem confusing between the two sets of adjustments as described in my OP.

[Rand47]

I'm not sure "confusing" is the term I'd use, but certainly "curious."  I've played with all the controls while carefully watching the histogram and image and "think" I have an idea of what does what.
Truth be told, however, I'm anxiously waiting for the LR4 Tutuorial from Jeff and Michael so that I can have a real understanding of not only function, but "relationship" of the sliders.  I have a feeling that much like noise being related to sharpening in LR, there must be similar "interrelationships" in the new sliders in the basic module, and with the curves panel.

Jeff? 

[Schewe]

Does anyone else find it confusing that LR4PB uses different but very similar terminology to describe the adjustments in the Basic and Tone Curve palettes?

While the two sets of controls may have similar visual impact on images, the algorithms are NOT the same...as a result, it's useful to be sure that the names are different...once you adapt to the new controls, it really won't be confusing...

[madmanchan]

This is indeed a discussion we had internally at Adobe (i.e., the naming of the sliders, and the fact that they share names elsewhere already -- like the Parametric Curves).

In the end, we felt it would be sufficiently clear from context (i.e., Basic panel vs Tone Curve).  We already have examples elsewhere of re-used names.  For example, we have "Saturation" in the Basic panel, and Saturation again in the HSL panel, and yet again in the Camera Calibration panel.  They all do rather different things, but they're also placed in different contexts that I don't think they tend to give users too much trouble.

[David Eichler]

This is indeed a discussion we had internally at Adobe (i.e., the naming of the sliders, and the fact that they share names elsewhere already -- like the Parametric Curves).

In the end, we felt it would be sufficiently clear from context (i.e., Basic panel vs Tone Curve).  We already have examples elsewhere of re-used names.  For example, we have "Saturation" in the Basic panel, and Saturation again in the HSL panel, and yet again in the Camera Calibration panel.  They all do rather different things, but they're also placed in different contexts that I don't think they tend to give users too much trouble.

How about saturation re the HSL controls in LR and Photoshop. Do these work differently? Maybe i am decieving myself, but it seems as though they do.

[luxborealis]

Wow, the issue regarding names is much deeper than I originally thought. I would class myself as an above-average user of LR and teach it at a local community college, so I'm still far from being an expert on it like Jeff and Eric, but here's the way I see it as a plebe...

• Not only are two similar adjustments given two different names ("Whites" in Basic is similar to "Highlights" in Tone Curve and "Highlights" in Basic is similar to "Lights" in Tone Curve) AND
• the same name is use in two different places for two different adjustment outcomes ("Highlights" in Basic is in the histogram region below "Highlights" in Tone Curve which is at the top of the Curve) BUT
• according to Eric Chan, there are also three "Saturations" that (to quote) "all do rather different things", yet, to my unschooled eyes (and I'm sure many others), all appear to alter the saturation of hues in the image in generally the same way.

I can clearly see the differences in tone adjustment in cases 1 and 2, but not in case 3, despite what Eric says.

I'm not trying to be an SD here, I just know that when I walk into a teaching situation I will be peppered with queries about this by people who are scratching their heads trying to get a handle on new terminology and wondering why Adobe would adopt such potentially confusing use of terms.

Personally, I think the problem lies with using the word "Whites" in the Basic adjustments. White is white, and, in photography, we've always taken it to be somewhat of an absolute - 100,100,100. Anything less than that - 100,99.9,100 - is not white, but now comes into the realm of "Highlights". I would prefer Adobe use Highlights - Lights - Midtones - Darks - Shadows (not "Blacks" as black is also an absolute: 0,0,0).

[meyerweb]

I agree with Lux that Adobe could have avoided this potential confusion with a better choice of naming. But it doesn't seem like too big a deal to adapt to once you understand the difference.  Part of the problem is that Adobe just absolutely sucks at documentation, so too many users won't understand the difference.  (And no, video tutorials are NOT the same as documentation.)

[Rhossydd]

Part of the problem is that Adobe just absolutely sucks at documentation, so too many users won't understand the difference.  (And no, video tutorials are NOT the same as documentation.)

+1 to that.
Change how everything works and is labelled, but then provide no clue how to use it. It's not really a great way to help people test it for them.

[adias]

This is indeed a discussion we had internally at Adobe (i.e., the naming of the sliders, and the fact that they share names elsewhere already -- like the Parametric Curves).

In the end, we felt it would be sufficiently clear from context (i.e., Basic panel vs Tone Curve).  We already have examples elsewhere of re-used names.  For example, we have "Saturation" in the Basic panel, and Saturation again in the HSL panel, and yet again in the Camera Calibration panel.  They all do rather different things, but they're also placed in different contexts that I don't think they tend to give users too much trouble.

The quarter tone labels should be called the same in the Basic Panel and Curves Panel. It just makes sense.

It would make sense to change the names under the parametric Tone Curve panel to the same names used in the Basic Panel:

  Lights
  Highlights
  Shadows
  Blacks

instead of the current

  Highlights
  Lights
  Darks
  Shadows

It would then be consistent.

[Schewe]

The quarter tone labels should be called the same in the Basic Panel and Curves Panel. It just makes sense.

But they don't do the same things...and I'm very, very sure they aren't gonna change from the LR4 beta.

[adias]

But they don't do the same things...and I'm very, very sure they aren't gonna change from the LR4 beta.

It is confusing. Context does not apply here.

I do not care as I do not use the parametric tone curve. I only commented, wanting to offer an 'industry insider' GUI consistence perspective.