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Author Topic: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question  (Read 5131 times)

TinFoilSkin

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Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« on: January 10, 2012, 05:30:52 pm »

Hi everyone.

Loving the trial of LR3 and the beta of 4 :)

Just a question about output sharpening; obviously I need to apply sharpening to any JPEGS I resize for the web, but what about TIFF's I save with LR? I would imagine since TIFF is a lossless format and I am not resizing them, I don't need to apply any output sharpening in the publish / export dialogue at all?

(I am saving TIFF's for archival purporses, not printing, so I basically want them to look exactly the same as my RAW edits do in lightroom)

Thanks!
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 05:56:22 pm »

Let me ask you this way:

If you are not doing anything to your TIFF files (printing, publishing, ...) why are you exporting them?
The whole idea behind Lightroom´s workflow is that you process and export directly from the original when needed and usualy don´t keep the processed image after used.

Best regards.
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luxborealis

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 05:59:55 pm »

For the purpose of exporting tiffs for archiving, I recommend only process sharpening that you do in the Develop Module and NOT adding sharpening upon export for one simple reason (which you seem to be already aware of): since you don't have a specific end use for the tiffs other than archiving, it is better to leave them without Output Sharpening.

Any particular reason why you've settled on tiffs and not dng or raw files? My guess is it's due to the universality of tiffs as a file format (who knows how long proprietary raw formats/readers and dng will be around for - a long time no doubt, but not forever!). Just thought I'd ask in case there is some other reason I could learn from.
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TinFoilSkin

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 08:39:28 pm »

Thanks guys.

It's true that it's kindof pointless saving TIFF's when it's all right there already as edited RAW's in Lightroom. I dunno...it just appeals to me to have hard copy master files somewhere, call it a bit obsessive maybe or just old school ha. It's all just a hobby to me after all. Maybe one day I won't have Lightroom anymore as well.

Why TIFF's? don't know to be honest. Guess I learnt photography knowing it was a lossless file, just what I read in magazines and such.

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luxborealis

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 08:55:38 pm »

By choosing tiffs  you chose correctly! Tiffs have greater potential longevity because they are a completely open standard that can be read by virtually every application from graphics to word processing, which is not the case for raw files (especially processed raw files) and dngs. There is logical thought and "method behind your madness"! ;D

By the way, how many of you can open docs created in the 1990s using what was then industry standard software? Word docs are okay but how many have migrated from Word Perfect or other such software that has succumbed to the ravages of time, market force and technological advances. There is a real case to be made for longevity of file formats.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 11:12:17 am by luxborealis »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 10:10:22 am »

There is a real case to be made for longevity of file formats.
I think the word needed here is 'standardisation', possibly in conjunction with 'open source format'.
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TinFoilSkin

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 10:39:58 am »

By choosing tiffs  you chose correctly! Tiffs have greater potential longevity because they are a completely open standard that can be read by virtually every application from graphics to work processing, which is not the case for raw files (especially processed raw files) and dogs. There is logical thought and "method behind your madness"! ;D

By the way, how many of you can open docs created in the 1990s using what was then industry standard software? Word docs are okay but how many have migrated from Word Perfect or other such software that has succumbed to the ravages of time and technological advances. There is a real case to be made for longevity of file formats.

Thanks! Glad to know I am saving stuff right! :)
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John MacLean

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 12:50:42 am »

If you're going to save master TIFs, you may want to save them without any sharpening applied at all. If you ever plan on upsampling any for large print output, it's best to apply sharpening to the file after it's been sized to its output dimensions.

Personally, I am just going to bank on the DNG archive route. Especially since I can go back to older images and breathe new life into them with each iteration of RAW processing that comes along. Not only does the software improve, I like to think that I'm getting better at the processing as times goes on too. The TIF files you create today won't be as good as the TIFs you could create even in a few years from now.

Best,
John
http://www.johnmaclean.com/

cameranphotography

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 12:05:22 pm »

thanks for sharing these! i got some ideas about LR. :)
will start using it soon.

TinFoilSkin

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 12:30:01 pm »

If you're going to save master TIFs, you may want to save them without any sharpening applied at all. If you ever plan on upsampling any for large print output, it's best to apply sharpening to the file after it's been sized to its output dimensions.

Personally, I am just going to bank on the DNG archive route. Especially since I can go back to older images and breathe new life into them with each iteration of RAW processing that comes along. Not only does the software improve, I like to think that I'm getting better at the processing as times goes on too. The TIF files you create today won't be as good as the TIFs you could create even in a few years from now.

Best,
John
http://www.johnmaclean.com/

Thanks; sounds like a sound argument.  :)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 05:34:31 pm »

Hi,

Some points:

1) DNG is a TIFF formate for saving raw image and related parameters

2) When you go from raw to TIFF (16 bits) the file will get six times fatter and you still loose some data

3) Capture sharpening should compensate for softening by lens and sensor and avoid visible halos, use small radius and moderate amount

4) The idea with Lightroom is that raw file would never be touched but Lightroom actually writes metadata to the DNG file

5) Output sharpening is dependent on output technology and print size, so it should be postponed until the image is printed.

Best regards
Erik




Hi everyone.

Loving the trial of LR3 and the beta of 4 :)

Just a question about output sharpening; obviously I need to apply sharpening to any JPEGS I resize for the web, but what about TIFF's I save with LR? I would imagine since TIFF is a lossless format and I am not resizing them, I don't need to apply any output sharpening in the publish / export dialogue at all?

(I am saving TIFF's for archival purporses, not printing, so I basically want them to look exactly the same as my RAW edits do in lightroom)

Thanks!
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Erik Kaffehr
 

John MacLean

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2012, 04:41:02 pm »

Hi,

3) Capture sharpening should compensate for softening by lens and sensor and avoid visible halos, use small radius and moderate amount

4) The idea with Lightroom is that raw file would never be touched but Lightroom actually writes metadata to the DNG file


#3 - I would still wait until a copy of the image is upsampled to size before applying any sharpening, otherwise you're going to get oatmeal when you upsample.

#4 - Yes, but the file itself is unchanged. The META is just a built in sidecar.

eliedinur

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 05:59:57 pm »

Quote
2) When you go from raw to TIFF (16 bits) the file will get six times fatter and you still loose some data
You can add to 2 the fact that the data is no longer linear.
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2012, 10:28:18 am »

I don't know why to worry too much about long term longevity. I would use the best format that allows me complete control TODAY, and less damage to the RAW data, which is the original camera's RAW format or DNG. When Canon stops supporting CR2, if they do, it would be to go to a better format, and in that moment I would convert all my CR2 to CR3, or whatever they decide to call it. Same with DNG, if Adobe decides to stop using DNG and will provide, I don't know, QNF (Quantum Negative File, to put a crazy name on it), they will provide a DNG to QNF converter before RAW converters stop using DNG.
I believe that going to TIFF is not practical, since it doesn't have the ability to taking advantage of newer RAW processors, like noise control, demosaicing algorithms, etc., and it will consume tons of disk space.

When the moment arrives that I need to convert my files, I will also upgrade my disk drive system, and will convert each file and send it to its new location at the same time. Is not really advisable to simply save a bunch of files to a hard drive, and put it in a drawer. It might not even turn on at all the next time you plug it in. CD's, DvDs and BR are also not very durable media. I almost lost a complete CD collection because I though it was a good idea to put the disks in a folder, and out of their jewel cases. In a couple of years, the recording media started to break down. I salvaged most of them, but some were completely lost.

So, I think the best bet is to keep your data in disk arrays, and keep upgrading the drives as new technology advances.

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Martin Ocando
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Nigel Johnson

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 03:26:05 pm »

When Canon stops supporting CR2, if they do, it would be to go to a better format, and in that moment I would convert all my CR2 to CR3, or whatever they decide to call it.

I very much doubt if they will offer you the opportunity to convert - they certainly didn't when they changed from CRW to CR2. You can however convert DNG files to the latest version using the DNG Convertor.

Quote
So, I think the best bet is to keep your data in disk arrays, and keep upgrading the drives as new technology advances.

I hope that the 's' on arrays was intentional and that you are indeed using multiple arrays with copies stored off-line and off-site. A single array is asking for problems (controller or power supply problems) as are only using on-line backups (common mode failures eg lightning, fire, flood, accidental deletion, etc). See Seth Resnick's 'Very Scary Story' as described in Part 11 of the 'L-L Guide to Asset Management - Where the #%*! are my Pictures?' for some of the things that can go wrong.

Regards
Nigel
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 03:34:28 pm »

I very much doubt if they will offer you the opportunity to convert - they certainly didn't when they changed from CRW to CR2. You can however convert DNG files to the latest version using the DNG Convertor.
But you can still read CRWs on CR and LR, so they are still supported. Once Adobe drops support to CRW, you'll be able to convert your CRWs to DNG.

I hope that the 's' on arrays was intentional and that you are indeed using multiple arrays with copies stored off-line and off-site. A single array is asking for problems (controller or power supply problems) as are only using on-line backups (common mode failures eg lightning, fire, flood, accidental deletion, etc). See Seth Resnick's 'Very Scary Story' as described in Part 11 of the 'L-L Guide to Asset Management - Where the #%*! are my Pictures?' for some of the things that can go wrong.

Regards
Nigel
The thing is, I have an array at work, a Buffalo Terastation, and plan to buy a Drobo for home storage, keeping both separated geographically.

What do you (or Seth) recommends for long term storage?
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Martin Ocando
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Nigel Johnson

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 04:19:27 pm »

But you can still read CRWs on CR and LR, so they are still supported. Once Adobe drops support to CRW, you'll be able to convert your CRWs to DNG.
The thing is, I have an array at work, a Buffalo Terastation, and plan to buy a Drobo for home storage, keeping both separated geographically.

What do you (or Seth) recommends for long term storage?

Martin

My comment re CR2 to CR3 was because you suggested that Canon would offer a convertor; I entirely agree with you about Adobe (and other raw convertors) still being able to read the formats.

As far as I remember, without checking the video, following his problems discussed in the 'Very Scary Story' segment Seth is now using a hard disc array as his working copy backed up automatically to a Drobo, he was then swapping the discs in the Drobo and storing the spare set (or perhaps sets) in another location. In the event of having to leave his home/studio he planned to grab the Drobo and take it with him (he lives in hurricane prone Miami).

I use a DroboPro as my main image store and back this up to bare hard drives which I mount using a NewerTechnology Voyager Q dock. I use Retrospect Software to create archives of the images (and Lightroom catalogue) allowing me if necessary to return to older versions saved at an earlier backup. I have two sets of the backup disks which I swap over with one set stored at my place of work (photography is a hobby so the Drobo is at home). I will typically run a daily backup to the hard discs if I have done any work on the photos and will swap the home and work sets about every fortnight. In addition I make sure that I have a set of any new raw images on my laptop and another disc until at least both backup sets contain the images (ie three copies - Drobo plus two backup sets), generally I keep the additional copies for much longer. I am thinking of adding additional copies to the backup sets that will be straight copies of the current files (not Retrospect archives) as these won't require special software (Retrospect) to be readable; although, conversely, they will not offer the archive functionality - hence the intention to do both. Other non-photo related files are backed up in a similar manner with the System discs being backed up both as archives and straight copies that can be be booted from if necessary.

You will need to ensure that as an absolute minimum you have your photos saved at both work and home and an extra copy would be advantageous. You should also ensure that you backup your Lightroom catalogue to a different disc or disc array. Assuming you write your edits back to the DNGs from Lightroom and that these are then backed up your key editing information should be safe, however various organisational features such as collections are the editing history only stored in the Lightroom Catalogue.

Regards,
Nigel

PS Yes, I spell catalogue differently from Adobe but I speak English rather than American!
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Martin Ocando

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Re: Newbie LR3/4 Sharpening Question
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 03:41:37 pm »

Go it. Will take all that into account when designing my backup schema.

I noticed about Catalogue, and is funny that FireFox auto spell checking marks it as badly written, which should be "proper" spelling, instead.  ;)


Martin

My comment re CR2 to CR3 was because you suggested that Canon would offer a convertor; I entirely agree with you about Adobe (and other raw convertors) still being able to read the formats.

As far as I remember, without checking the video, following his problems discussed in the 'Very Scary Story' segment Seth is now using a hard disc array as his working copy backed up automatically to a Drobo, he was then swapping the discs in the Drobo and storing the spare set (or perhaps sets) in another location. In the event of having to leave his home/studio he planned to grab the Drobo and take it with him (he lives in hurricane prone Miami).

I use a DroboPro as my main image store and back this up to bare hard drives which I mount using a NewerTechnology Voyager Q dock. I use Retrospect Software to create archives of the images (and Lightroom catalogue) allowing me if necessary to return to older versions saved at an earlier backup. I have two sets of the backup disks which I swap over with one set stored at my place of work (photography is a hobby so the Drobo is at home). I will typically run a daily backup to the hard discs if I have done any work on the photos and will swap the home and work sets about every fortnight. In addition I make sure that I have a set of any new raw images on my laptop and another disc until at least both backup sets contain the images (ie three copies - Drobo plus two backup sets), generally I keep the additional copies for much longer. I am thinking of adding additional copies to the backup sets that will be straight copies of the current files (not Retrospect archives) as these won't require special software (Retrospect) to be readable; although, conversely, they will not offer the archive functionality - hence the intention to do both. Other non-photo related files are backed up in a similar manner with the System discs being backed up both as archives and straight copies that can be be booted from if necessary.

You will need to ensure that as an absolute minimum you have your photos saved at both work and home and an extra copy would be advantageous. You should also ensure that you backup your Lightroom catalogue to a different disc or disc array. Assuming you write your edits back to the DNGs from Lightroom and that these are then backed up your key editing information should be safe, however various organisational features such as collections are the editing history only stored in the Lightroom Catalogue.

Regards,
Nigel

PS Yes, I spell catalogue differently from Adobe but I speak English rather than American!
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Martin Ocando
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