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Author Topic: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro  (Read 33445 times)

jeremypayne

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2012, 03:29:58 pm »

Jeremy,

With all due respect and knowing that what you are saying may be true in other markets, that's not the way it worked in the back manufacturer company I used to work for 20 years, it is quite the opposite. Your remark may apply and be true for other markets, but not in the professional photography market in general and even less in the back business. Costs can not be brought down at will and wish, particularly not with digital backs in such a small and niche market. It is never as you describe it "If an customer-acceptable value/price dynamic results in a price that is in excess of costs, then you win ...": we would have gone bankrupt after 2 years.

Best regards
Thierry


Sorry, Thierry ... it applies to ALL markets.   Customers don't know or care about your costs.

All you are saying is that you price above cost ... that's an important concept, but also obvious.

What I am saying is for that price and product to be successful, it must represent value to the end-user.

The fact that you didn't go bankrupt means your prices were both in excess of your costs and brought acceptable value to your clients.

The back market is not special in this regard.
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TH_Alpa

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2012, 04:21:22 pm »

Nothing to be sorry, just a discussion in which am trying to bring in my own experience from one of the previous leading companies in this market in which I was involved and well aware of the pricing policy and how it was calculated.

What I am saying is not only that one prices above costs (obviously as you say it), but that the margin which is calculated and which gives the enduser price is not a calculation coming from nowhere or resulting from some agreements between manufacturers (that was my initial answer to Paul, who wrote that prices were fixed and artificially hold high by the manufacturers). It is in the contrary a seriously made calculation involving all aspects of the company and resulting in the margin it needs to be profitable. And there is not much room left after this calculation is made: in other words, the manufacturers do also take in account the pricing of the competitors. And usually competition drives prices down. And also in other words, these prices must be at that level until the R&D costs are recovered (you can make yourself the calculation how many units to be sold this means when knowing that the whole market of MFDBs is about 10'000 units per year, that there are 3 or 4 manufacturers, that R&D costs for each new back introduced amount to anywhere between 4 or 500k and 1m.
That for this resulting price the product has to bring some value to the enduser is obvious, and it (this value) usually is not only a reflection or a consequence of the product itself but of the complete value of the company and its distribution channels in the eyes of the customer.
The professional photography/back market is special in this that it is on one hand a niche market (there are not many markets in the world involving at the best 10'000 units/sales per year to be shared between 3 or 4 manufacturers), with sales based on technicality (best possible quality) of the products and the capacity of the company manufacturing these products to be innovative and quick-responding when it comes to bring new products to the market (with lifetimes of maximum 2, at the best 3 years for each product developed and brought to the market). In this regard it is a very special market not allowing much playroom regarding margins.

Best regards
Thierry

Sorry, Thierry ... it applies to ALL markets.   Customers don't know or care about your costs.

All you are saying is that you price above cost ... that's an important concept, but also obvious.

What I am saying is for that price and product to be successful, it must represent value to the end-user.

The fact that you didn't go bankrupt means your prices were both in excess of your costs and brought acceptable value to your clients.

The back market is not special in this regard.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 04:30:28 pm by TH_Alpa »
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2012, 04:51:03 pm »

Thierry,

Given what you said above, do you personally believe in the longevity of the medium format digital market? 

Do you believe customers longterm will continue to pay $10K+ upgrades for only very incremental improvements?

I see room for one high end manufacturer (Leica in my opinion) and for Pentax and others that are willing to join at a lower price level, around $10K.

I have a harder time believing that Phase One and Hasselblad will be able to maintain their current business model in the future.  Just my personal opinion.

Regards, Joris.

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fotometria gr

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2012, 04:53:00 pm »

Why is it that when 'small pixels' are put on a 35mm chip that theyre considered to too small to be of high quality capability.... but the similarily sized small pixels found on the current generation of MFD backs (P65,iq160,180,Hassy60..) are perfectly acceptable? Is this anoher manifestation of the inherent 'magic' of MFD?
"Yes there is"!! The light sensitive area on a MFDB is positioned further back from the mount (and the focal length of the lens), than a 35mm camera, this makes the perception of light towards the edges of the frame easier than a 35mm camera (the light enters at a smaller angle), and hence a smaller pixel can record the info received better! Its the same really as it happens with FF and APS-c sensors, its much easier to built a smaller pixel on the APS-c sensor because the edges of the frame of the FF sensor are missing and thus light is received at a better angle. This means that a 36mpx sensor that would have the same technology with (say) the sensor used on the D7K AND the (nearly) same pixel size, would perform worst on the FF camera. Mind you that the microlenses used on the pixel do help, but don't eliminate the problem, they are needed on an APS-c sensor as well. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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siebel

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2012, 01:35:05 am »

As has been noted, MFDB's are primarily marketed to and for professionals. Given the low cost of entry to the pro market these days (read: basic DSLR system), we are really talking mostly about the high-end of the pro market.
It may be hard to comprehend from the perspective of an amateur or hobbyist, but the decision to purchase a MFDB, or to upgrade an existing one is not a mind-boggling prospect as some seem to think.
I can't speak for all shooters, but I know many who share my thinking. A decision to spend say USD50k on a system, which sounds like a large wedge of silver, has to be viewed in context of its earning potential over its expected service life (for me, that is typically 3-5years), the tax benefits over that time of depreciation, and its trade-in value at the end. If you are leasing, then you might consider the monthly cost versus the earning capacity. I expect my IQ180 to earn me a little over a million clams over the next 5 years, so would I lose too much sleep about the purchase? Not really.
Let me put it another way - would I be willing to allocate the fees from 12.5 days worth of shooting to cover this purchase, knowing that once I do, it will be 5 years before I have to do it again? If I was upgrading a back, this number is much smaller still.
Fortunately for the 3 players in the MFGB game, there are enough high-end shooters out there to keep them in business....
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TH_Alpa

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2012, 02:48:36 am »

Joris,

I personally think that the MFDB market in the high-end segment is going to be at the same level for the coming years. As Bryan said, it is a professional market, and the purchase has to be put in context with earning and lifetime. And in this respect the market is quite stable since its begin.

Best regards
Thierry

Thierry,

Given what you said above, do you personally believe in the longevity of the medium format digital market? 

Do you believe customers longterm will continue to pay $10K+ upgrades for only very incremental improvements?

I see room for one high end manufacturer (Leica in my opinion) and for Pentax and others that are willing to join at a lower price level, around $10K.

I have a harder time believing that Phase One and Hasselblad will be able to maintain their current business model in the future.  Just my personal opinion.

Regards, Joris.


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fotometria gr

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2012, 05:21:28 am »

Joris,

I personally think that the MFDB market in the high-end segment is going to be at the same level for the coming years. As Bryan said, it is a professional market, and the purchase has to be put in context with earning and lifetime. And in this respect the market is quite stable since its begin.

Best regards
Thierry

Hi Thierry, although I agree with you about the expected "stability" of the MFDB market, I keep thinking that they (the makers) miss the opportunity to expand it. IMO they have worked a lot in the later years, to attract the customers from the top DSLRs, by trying to give MF the same user-friendly appearance on their cameras as a DSLR. OTOH much of the need for DBs is because of their ability to serve more purposes than just MF, the support to view and technical cameras, multishot and microstep, stitching and astrophotography (long exposures), are only a few that the use of a DB makes the difference. Although I don't believe that there will be any 36mpx D800, we have to realize, that the inevitable and welcome increase in the IQ of FF DSLRs, will make the use of a MFDB for the same purpose less appealing..., hence the makers should pay more attention to enhance the traditional values that DBs stand for and enhance on them. If I was to decide for manufacturers, I would ask Dalsa to introduce a cost effective, improved FF version of their traditional 22 & 33mpx sensor, at 28 & 42mpx respectively. Such a sensor could be beneficial for Sinar and Hasselblad to re-introduce multishot and microstep capable backs at sensible costs, it could be used by P1 to apply their sensor+ and exposure+ technology and if Hass would reintroduce their interchangeable adapter CF backs, they could along with Sinar, "wake up" the lot of MF that exists (Bronica, RB, LF.. etc), by creating a lot of base customers for the future. My opinion is, that its the solution providence of MF that should be enhanced, not the better IQ as such. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. The second hand market of older DBs must also be expanded from the manufacturers, it can be very beneficial for them, if they give the opportunity to many more photographers to access MF.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 05:26:41 am by fotometria gr »
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TH_Alpa

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2012, 05:29:39 am »

I agree with you, Theodoros.

Best regards
Thierry

Hi Thierry, although I agree with you about the expected "stability" of the MFDB market, I keep thinking that they (the makers) miss the opportunity to expand it. IMO they have worked a lot in the later years, to attract the customers from the top DSLRs, by trying to give MF the same user-friendly appearance on their cameras as a DSLR. OTOH much of the need for DBs is because of their ability to serve more purposes than just MF, the support to view and technical cameras, multishot and microstep, stitching and astrophotography (long exposures), are only a few that the use of a DB makes the difference. Although I don't believe that there will be any 36mpx D800, we have to realize, that the inevitable and welcome increase in the IQ of FF DSLRs, will make the use of a MFDB for the same purpose less appealing..., hence the makers should pay more attention to enhance the traditional values that DBs stand for and enhance on them. If I was to decide for manufacturers, I would ask Dalsa to introduce a cost effective, improved FF version of their traditional 22 & 33mpx sensor, at 28 & 42mpx respectively. Such a sensor could be beneficial for Sinar and Hasselblad to re-introduce multishot and microstep capable backs at sensible costs, it could be used by P1 to apply their sensor+ and exposure+ technology and if Hass would reintroduce their interchangeable adapter CF backs, they could along with Sinar, "wake up" the lot of MF that exists (Bronica, RB, LF.. etc), by creating a lot of base customers for the future. My opinion is, that its the solution providence of MF that should be enhanced, not the better IQ as such. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. The second hand market of older DBs must also be expanded from the manufacturers, it can be very beneficial for them, if they give the opportunity to many more photographers to access MF.
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mediumcool

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2012, 07:31:15 am »

Resolution is the most often sighted spec in digital photography but is often one of the less important aspects, especially when it comes to pricing. A Canon 5D Mark II, a Mamiya ZD, a Phase One P25+, and a iPhone 3g running a stitching app are all 22mp cameras but otherwise share very little in common with each other.

+1
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fotometria gr

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2012, 11:18:53 am »

+1
OK! So... what? What about proposing something instead of just understand the problem and agree to it? To specify the (marketing) problem for real photography is not of help, to amplify solutions by combining your voice and thus create a market demand ...MAY BE a solution. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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mediumcool

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2012, 12:06:36 pm »

OK! So... what? What about proposing something instead of just understand the problem and agree to it? To specify the (marketing) problem for real photography is not of help, to amplify solutions by combining your voice and thus create a market demand ...MAY BE a solution. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

What the hell are you on about, Theodoros? I was agreeing with a particular post.

And why say *regards* when you attack somebody? I understand that you are presumably not a native English speaker, but that is so dissonant, it ain’t humourous.

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mediumcool

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2012, 12:08:46 pm »

Aggression is not friendly.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 09:42:35 am by mediumcool »
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Stefan.Steib

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2012, 12:43:37 pm »

I fully agree with the idea of a neccessary new  chip for the whole industry.
I have already posted this in GetDPI and also in an interview that will come out in the German Digit very soon.

I can only kindly ask Phase/Leaf/Mamiya and Hasselblad to sit down on one table and discuss the  idea of a large CMOS for them.
Alone the numbers will not be large enough for each of them to produce it.
Together they could do something like the fabulos Ford Cosworth formula one 8 cylinder motor that was lasting for nearly 16 years of winners driving it.
Make it a 60 Mpix 6x7 cm, with a nice large pixel pitch, allowing movements, give a rest to this "Digital lenses" madness with best sharpness only on open aperture,
allow 8 K video or at least about 5-10 images a sec, use oversampling and Pixel binning as well as Liveview.

PLEASE DO IT !!!! This is the only way of keeping professional Highend -Photography with movements and manual control alive.
Otherwise all the stuff will be substituted by the smaller and cheaper formats sooner or later. And as there are even smaller Pixels coming there will not be
modular concepts and no manual control. Everybody should think of this

And if this concept catches on they can safely earn some money and do even higher resolutions with 80, 100 or 120 Mpix (would be still the same pixel pitch as 60Mpix today on 4,5-6cm).


Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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fotometria gr

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2012, 12:59:21 pm »

What the hell are you on about, Theodoros? I was agreeing with a particular post.

And why say *regards* when you attack somebody? I understand that you are presumably not a native English speaker, but that is so dissonant, it ain’t humourous.


It's not an attack, it's a fact!  ??? You and others, are rightfully specify the already specified problem without proposing what IYO should be done about it, I am not trying to be humourous neither to attack you, I only participate on a discussion to share a view for a common target that should be the advance of our photography, either if English is my native language or not, its whether I am right or wrong or being understood that should be noted and answered not your feeling about a hypothetical (non existing) attack! Please re-read my post to you, you may find that is your answer to it that's "out of subject". BEST REGARDS (truly), Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2012, 01:44:23 pm »

I fully agree with the idea of a neccessary new  chip for the whole industry.
I have already posted this in GetDPI and also in an interview that will come out in the German Digit very soon.

I can only kindly ask Phase/Leaf/Mamiya and Hasselblad to sit down on one table and discuss the  idea of a large CMOS for them.
Alone the numbers will not be large enough for each of them to produce it.
Together they could do something like the fabulos Ford Cosworth formula one 8 cylinder motor that was lasting for nearly 16 years of winners driving it.
Make it a 60 Mpix 6x7 cm, with a nice large pixel pitch, allowing movements, give a rest to this "Digital lenses" madness with best sharpness only on open aperture,
allow 8 K video or at least about 5-10 images a sec, use oversampling and Pixel binning as well as Liveview.

PLEASE DO IT !!!! This is the only way of keeping professional Highend -Photography with movements and manual control alive.
Otherwise all the stuff will be substituted by the smaller and cheaper formats sooner or later. And as there are even smaller Pixels coming there will not be
modular concepts and no manual control. Everybody should think of this

And if this concept catches on they can safely earn some money and do even higher resolutions with 80, 100 or 120 Mpix (would be still the same pixel pitch as 60Mpix today on 4,5-6cm).


Greetings from Munich
Stefan
Don't you think that you forgot Sinar/Leica Stefan? Should they being left out?
 Although I disagree by the proposal of a CMOS (I feel that MF is fine with CCDs), its the rest of your post that is of most importance, I also suggested a few days ago here, in LuLa, that MF manufacturers "should sit around a table" and agree to a policy that would be beneficial for them and our photography, instead of looking to "each other" as the real enemy! Opening their systems to each other and to the previous MF market that didn't survive the "digital massacre" of photography, is only a start that they should have already done! If they don't, they will be "sitting ducks" for the "Canonikons", who only care to eliminate whoever will deny them their target, which of course is THE whole PHOTO MARKET. They don't care about photography at all, they only care to convince the market that their camera and "IS-VRII" lens makes people feel photographers! They are asking for 7000 for a D3X/1DS3 toy for Christ shake, an Aptus 5 costs the same and proves the DSLR to be the TOY that it is! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
P.S. Did anybody see the results of this year NPCI?  ;) ...Its the proof for the above stated.
 
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Stefan.Steib

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2012, 09:01:23 am »

Theodoros

Sinar: that´s too complicated to explain in 2 sentences but I try. Given their actual market share and the fact that the Backs are still built by Jenoptic I guess it does not make much sense. Sinar is not what it once was, they still do carry the name, but it´s not the same company anymore. maybe Thierry wants to explain that in Detail, otherwise I would say - not of relevance (sad but true)

Leica: seems to be the company which will do best of all the mentioned. And as it is in the rumours - they will probably use the new Fuji organic CMOS chips this year, so I guess not much need for a joint venture.

Last but not least: Pentax - as they are on the well of japanese resources I think we  do NOT need to consider Pentax a third player in a Joint venture.
I expect Ricoh to absorb the Pentax 645 into a soon to come GRX- Xtra Large.

Left over Hasselblad and Phase. And both - if they will not claim their part on this Pro Highend market will be in trouble in medium time frame of about 5 years latest, whereas I think that Phase has even more to loose on all these Frame and Tech users. And this is not only my opinion , this exactly was stated by Henrik Hakansson april 2010 in an interview with german "Profifoto". They are actually neighbours in Kopenhagen and probably know each other very well. So guys - get it settled, do the right thing - speak !

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

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jeremypayne

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2012, 09:30:42 am »

It's not an attack ... [BLAH BLAH]

It was rude and uncalled-for.  Your behavior on this forum is disruptive and childish.

We are basically self-policed and rarely need help from "management" to keep this place pleasant and civil ... because most participants behave as adults.

You need to grow-up.
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mediumcool

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2012, 09:35:58 am »

Answer, probably not because of brand caché.

Justin, a caché is something that is hidden; cachet is the real deal:



However, since you employed the acute accent with such aplomb, I have to assume you are a Mac guy!  ;D


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mediumcool

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2012, 09:40:42 am »

Shoot I gotta make it my new years resolution to stop comparing cameras when one of them doesn't (officially) exist yet.

Missed this post!

+1 LOL
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Radu Arama

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2012, 10:00:16 am »

Hello Thierry!

Would you mind to elaborate if those 10 000 units are only for backs or all MF cameras (including S2 and 645D integrated models)? Because based on my information Pentax makes 700 units per month and that alone accounts for 8.4K units per year.

Thank you!
Radu

Nothing to be sorry, just a discussion in which am trying to bring in my own experience from one of the previous leading companies in this market in which I was involved and well aware of the pricing policy and how it was calculated.

What I am saying is not only that one prices above costs (obviously as you say it), but that the margin which is calculated and which gives the enduser price is not a calculation coming from nowhere or resulting from some agreements between manufacturers (that was my initial answer to Paul, who wrote that prices were fixed and artificially hold high by the manufacturers). It is in the contrary a seriously made calculation involving all aspects of the company and resulting in the margin it needs to be profitable. And there is not much room left after this calculation is made: in other words, the manufacturers do also take in account the pricing of the competitors. And usually competition drives prices down. And also in other words, these prices must be at that level until the R&D costs are recovered (you can make yourself the calculation how many units to be sold this means when knowing that the whole market of MFDBs is about 10'000 units per year, that there are 3 or 4 manufacturers, that R&D costs for each new back introduced amount to anywhere between 4 or 500k and 1m.
That for this resulting price the product has to bring some value to the enduser is obvious, and it (this value) usually is not only a reflection or a consequence of the product itself but of the complete value of the company and its distribution channels in the eyes of the customer.
The professional photography/back market is special in this that it is on one hand a niche market (there are not many markets in the world involving at the best 10'000 units/sales per year to be shared between 3 or 4 manufacturers), with sales based on technicality (best possible quality) of the products and the capacity of the company manufacturing these products to be innovative and quick-responding when it comes to bring new products to the market (with lifetimes of maximum 2, at the best 3 years for each product developed and brought to the market). In this regard it is a very special market not allowing much playroom regarding margins.

Best regards
Thierry

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