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Author Topic: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro  (Read 23120 times)

markymarkrb

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Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« on: December 20, 2011, 10:15:37 AM »

I wanted to get a few opinions on camera prices.  With the new Nikon D800 rumored to be 36MP coming out shortly, do you think that this will have an affect on future pricing of the H4D-40/IQ140 pricing(not to mention the 645D)?  I know the Nikon is not MF or anywhere near on quality but this has to have some pull on MF pricing and selling points.  What do you think?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 10:43:50 AM »

I would not anticipate any change to IQ pricing anytime soon.

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theguywitha645d

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 11:09:12 AM »

Exactly how does the production cost of one product change because of another? A Ferrari is going to cost just as much no matter how cheap a Toyota Camry is.
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 02:34:53 PM »

Exactly how does the production cost of one product change because of another? A Ferrari is going to cost just as much no matter how cheap a Toyota Camry is.

Actually, if the H cameras are perceived as working tools, then yes, sales pricing (not production cost) should depend on the competitive landscape.

And one way to lower sales pricing is to cut dealer margin  :P

Edmund
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Justin Berman

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

Its not really a fair comparison.

The better way to say it would be:
If Toyota made a supercar that could rival the performance of a Ferrari for the price of a Camry, would that affect Ferrari pricing?

Answer, probably not because of brand caché.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 03:33:29 PM »

Hi,

No, I don't think so. MF digital seems pretty much to have a life of it's own.


Best regards
Erik


I wanted to get a few opinions on camera prices.  With the new Nikon D800 rumored to be 36MP coming out shortly, do you think that this will have an affect on future pricing of the H4D-40/IQ140 pricing(not to mention the 645D)?  I know the Nikon is not MF or anywhere near on quality but this has to have some pull on MF pricing and selling points.  What do you think?

skimasks

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 04:13:34 PM »

Its not really a fair comparison.

The better way to say it would be:
If Toyota made a supercar that could rival the performance of a Ferrari for the price of a Camry, would that affect Ferrari pricing?

Answer, probably not because of brand caché.

A fair comparison would be Nissan's GT-R (modified) and the two million dollar Buggati Veyron. Although often compared in hilarious online videos the price of a Buggati has, of course, never shifted. Same with the Lamborghinis the GT-R has slayed.

wolfbellw.

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 04:17:15 PM »

Exactly how does the production cost of one product change because of another? A Ferrari is going to cost just as much no matter how cheap a Toyota Camry is.

are we talking about ferraris? or rather about american muscle cars?
plenty of engine power but technology wise prettty mediocre and far behind modern standards.
the new sony nex-7 might be rather the new photographic ferrari.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 06:18:43 PM »

These car analogies leave me dizzy. But suffice it to say that an [IQ140 + DF + Schneider LS lens] and a (rumored) [Nikon D800 kit] simply do not overlap much regarding features, extensibility, flexibility, advantages, disadvantages, design emphasis, ideal uses, intended markets, distribution/support/service methods, marketing, or really - much of anything other than they both take pictures and are both high-resolution.

Resolution is the most often sighted spec in digital photography but is often one of the less important aspects, especially when it comes to pricing. A Canon 5D Mark II, a Mamiya ZD, a Phase One P25+, and a iPhone 3g running a stitching app are all 22mp cameras but otherwise share very little in common with each other.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 06:35:03 PM »

I know the Nikon is not MF or anywhere near on quality...

Forgive me, but how are you able to comment on the lack of image quality of a yet un-released camera?

Extrapolating from existing cameras, the D800 should be in the same ballpark in terms of DR and, assuming it lacks an AA filter, feel as sharp as backs in the same resolution range. We know that many people judge image quality by the look of the file at 100% on screen.

Of course its live view capability will make it much easier to actually deliver on this resolution most of the time, which should result in superior real world image quality all other things being equal.

Cheers,
Bernard
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theguywitha645d

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 07:27:18 PM »

Of course its live view capability will make it much easier to actually deliver on this resolution most of the time, which should result in superior real world image quality all other things being equal.

Cheers,
Bernard


Ha, ha, ha. Now who is commenting on an unannounced camera? You are 100% sure it will have live view or even exists? But I happen to take pictures of 3-D objects/scenes and use DoF. Images of test targets don't do it for me. But neither situation requires live view to achieve focus.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2011, 07:53:03 PM »

Actually, if the H cameras are perceived as working tools, then yes, sales pricing (not production cost) should depend on the competitive landscape.

And one way to lower sales pricing is to cut dealer margin  :P

Edmund


Already been done, believe me. And not much of a difference.
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uaiomex

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2011, 11:50:17 PM »

Right, I was thinking something alike. Since DMF has its own niche and it is not a consumer product, price won't be affected. I don't know about sales.
Eduardo

Its not really a fair comparison.

The better way to say it would be:
If Toyota made a supercar that could rival the performance of a Ferrari for the price of a Camry, would that affect Ferrari pricing?

Answer, probably not because of brand caché.
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markymarkrb

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 12:44:56 AM »

Well, if we are going to talk about Toyota vs Ferrari, we might as well get our facts straight.  Check it out for yourself.


"Out of the box, Toyota’s first supercar beats a Ferrari. Yeah, you read that correctly. If Toyota put the same soul and ­passion into the rest of its cars, the company would be unbeatable."

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/lexus-lfa-vs-ferrari-599-hgte-comparison-test

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 02:12:44 AM »

Ha, ha, ha. Now who is commenting on an unannounced camera? You are 100% sure it will have live view or even exists? But I happen to take pictures of 3-D objects/scenes and use DoF. Images of test targets don't do it for me. But neither situation requires live view to achieve focus.

Yes, I am 100% sure it will have live view.

I guess we might have different expectations about focus accuracy and diffraction limitations then. We might as well stick to 22 mp backs if that is the case. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 05:45:19 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2011, 02:14:01 AM »

Well, if we are going to talk about Toyota vs Ferrari, we might as well get our facts straight.  Check it out for yourself.


"Out of the box, Toyota’s first supercar beats a Ferrari. Yeah, you read that correctly. If Toyota put the same soul and ­passion into the rest of its cars, the company would be unbeatable."

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/lexus-lfa-vs-ferrari-599-hgte-comparison-test

Which finally makes the comparison with cars a lot more relevant!  ;)

Now, we could do it in Tokyo Marc. I bring my - yet announced, un-produced,... - D800, you bring your IQ180 and we spend 2 hours shooting real things in Tokyo from similar positions with lenses providing the same crop. We select the best 5, optimze them to the extreme with our respective normal workflows, and print them at A1 size at my place (you pay).

We ask 5 friends to decide which image is the best over a few beers. Hey, michael used to do thee things back then, someone need to take over.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 02:19:26 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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PatrikR

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 02:57:15 AM »

Yeah! I heard that Ferraris have a lot of "issues".
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland

Stefan.Steib

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 05:38:52 AM »

Well - to see what happens just take a look at the used stuff (minimum)prices on Ebay.

a H20 today is starting at 1500 $, an H25 maybe at 2500$ (mention the jump for just 6 MPIx?) these backs have been really expensive 8 years ago,
P20 go for 3500$ and used P25 +go for 4500 $. A P45 used still goes for at least 8000 $ the P45+ are well over 10000 $

With the introduction of every new generation of newer backs or Mpix competition the prices have eroded.
Of course there never was a jump upwards with 18Mpix/100 %+ on the side of the 35mm competition before.
So nobody can exactly predict how fast the market will react,......... but it will, I expect the prices for comparable used MF backs (around 40 Mpix) to fall by at least a third,
maybe half.
This will not only be influenced by the new 35mm Bodies, but also by the fact that the new IQ´s and Aptus and H and CFV´s are sold with higher resolutions too.
Once those are a year old their price will fall also - this is normal- and this will pull down the smaller backs too.

Regards
Stefan
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