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Author Topic: B&W Films Available in 2011.......  (Read 9700 times)

Brian Hirschfeld

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B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« on: December 02, 2011, 11:44:53 am »

So I am working on a review for my website (http://www.brianhirschfeldphotography.com) about the B&W films currently available in 2011. I am going to use a set up still life subject in controlled lighting with a Mamiya 645AFD and 120mm f/4 Macro MF, after checking exposure with my DB I will take one image under exposed, one properly exposed and one one stop over exposed for each film, the rest of the roll I will take out and about and get some real world samples with. Then I'll have them processed and the best result for reach drum scanned for the final review.

Here is a list of the 120 B&W films I have ready for the test, I know I am currently missing Ilford and Kodak's offerings but they are on the way:

ADOX CHS 25
ADOX CHS 50
ADOX CHS 100

EFKE R100
EFKE R25
EFKE R50

ROLLEI/AGFA Pan 25
ROLLEI/AGFA Retro 400s
ROLLEI/AGFA RPX 400
ROLLEI/AGFA Superpan 200
ROLLEI/AGFA RPX 100
ROLLEI/AGFA AT2.1 Supergraphic
ROLLEI/AGFA ATP1.1
ROLLEI/AGFA Retro 80s
ROLLEI/AGFA Ortho 25

these are what I have and I would love to know anyones thoughts on the tests or films that I have missed (please be nice if I missed something really obvious)
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 04:29:08 pm »

Added

Neopan ARCOS 100
Ultrafine Extreme 400
Foma Fomapan Classic 100
Foma Fomapan Action 400

Ilford Delta 100
Ilford Delta 3200
Ilford Delta 400
Ilford FP4 Plus 125
Ilford HP5 Plus 400
Ilford PAN F 50
Ilford XP2 400

Kodak Tri-X 400TX
Kodak TMX T-Max 100
Kodak TMY T-Max 400
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MichaelWesseling

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 04:38:47 pm »

Subscribed ! Very interesting, thanks for doing this so I can feed my Pentax 6x7 with some decent film.  Are you going to develop them by yourself and what scanner will you be using ?

ps. interesting website, lot to read !
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 04:44:34 pm by MichaelWesseling »
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 06:33:26 pm »

Thank you for the support for my little project here and my website!

No, I will not be developing them myself, the jury is still out on where I will be sending them to get processed and scanned. I'm kindof hoping I'll find someone who can sponsor the development (e.g. a lap for publicity) and someone with a drum scanning business (to do the same) if not, I'll consider it good sport and do it myself (e.g pay for it) for science.

Any recommendations for either of these are more then welcome as well.
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Cineski

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 06:56:27 pm »

This is quite interesting.  What's your location?  It'd be nice if you could get a scan on a Frontier/Noritsu type scanner and a drum scan as they yield pretty different results.  I've also found different labs have quite different chemistry strength which can effect grain.  For good labs in LA check out RPL, Icon, A&I although I'm not happy with RPL's black and white scans (blown highlights).  Fromex in Marina Del Rey has really good black and white developing and scans.  Actually, there's a guy in Hollywood that runs a small black and white studio.  Anyone remember his name?  Does stellar black and white work.  Let me find that out.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 07:00:26 pm »

Thank you for the support and I will look into those. I had kind of scoped out, http://www.mvlabs.com/?page_id=14 and http://www.drumscanning.com/rates.html because they are both located in NY and I am in Fairfield, CT. I have nothing against sending the film further if there are better options quality wise... let me know your thoughts on these two...
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Camdavidson

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 07:11:18 pm »

Dalmatian Labs in North Carolina are excellent and they also offer scanning.

http://www.dalmatianlab.com/
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 07:13:37 pm »

Dalmatian Labs in North Carolina are excellent and they also offer scanning.

http://www.dalmatianlab.com/

Their website doesn't mention processing services or how they do them, or am I just not seeing it? thanks.
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grnbrg

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 10:55:15 am »

Since each film responds in different ways to different developers, how will you determine what the best match is for each?  If you use the same developer for all the films (if that is even possible) it will be almost impossible to make conclusions about any particular film.  I'm still interested in what you find out, but you could do the same tests with two or three sets of developers and get different results each time. I think it's worth trying this with at least two or three different developers, if you have the resources.
 
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IanB

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 12:54:09 pm »

I'd like to endorse and emphasise what grnbrg says. The developer is in many ways much more important than the film, as all of the films listed are pretty good quality in one way or another. Following the manufacturer's recommendations for film speed and developing is not likely to achieve optimal results. All the old zone system concerns are relevant here, and even more so.

I use MF monochrome and scan with a Nikon 9000ED, and have found that scanning at high resolutions (up to 4000dpi) is ruthlessely unforgiving of even tiny flaws in technique - much more so than with conventional wet printing. I suspect as a result that few people who compare film and digital in the mono world are really looking at optimum film quality. You are probably looking for the finest grain and widest tonal range, perhaps with a little bit of chemical acutance (but not too much!). I find that gives best results for scanning, as most other qualities can be adjusted at the digital stage. For fine enough grain with medium speed films (AGFA100 is my film of choice, although I'm also very fond of ADOX films) it is worth greatly reducing film speed (perhaps half manufacturer's speed) and using very delicate development. A strong, punchy-looking negative is unlikely to have enough tonal range once scanned. You might actually be better off avoiding commercial development altogether and working out film processing with someone with excellent B&W technique instead - their input/experience could be very valuable. Standard solutions will probably under-represent what these films are all capable of.

However, I think this is an area where much more research is needed, and I'm not really in a position to do it, so I'd really like to encourage you to go ahead. I will certainly be very interested in the results. Hope it goes well!
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 01:48:55 pm »

I'd like to endorse and emphasise what grnbrg says. The developer is in many ways much more important than the film, as all of the films listed are pretty good quality in one way or another. Following the manufacturer's recommendations for film speed and developing is not likely to achieve optimal results. All the old zone system concerns are relevant here, and even more so.

I use MF monochrome and scan with a Nikon 9000ED, and have found that scanning at high resolutions (up to 4000dpi) is ruthlessely unforgiving of even tiny flaws in technique - much more so than with conventional wet printing. I suspect as a result that few people who compare film and digital in the mono world are really looking at optimum film quality. You are probably looking for the finest grain and widest tonal range, perhaps with a little bit of chemical acutance (but not too much!). I find that gives best results for scanning, as most other qualities can be adjusted at the digital stage. For fine enough grain with medium speed films (AGFA100 is my film of choice, although I'm also very fond of ADOX films) it is worth greatly reducing film speed (perhaps half manufacturer's speed) and using very delicate development. A strong, punchy-looking negative is unlikely to have enough tonal range once scanned. You might actually be better off avoiding commercial development altogether and working out film processing with someone with excellent B&W technique instead - their input/experience could be very valuable. Standard solutions will probably under-represent what these films are all capable of.

However, I think this is an area where much more research is needed, and I'm not really in a position to do it, so I'd really like to encourage you to go ahead. I will certainly be very interested in the results. Hope it goes well!

Thank you, this is something I was considering because I saw that they (MV labs) offer different choices of developer (their website says they offer over 25. But if someone could recommend a better lab or an individual who would be interesting in undertaking this test with me who has their own darkroom (which I do not) I would greatly appreciate this. thank you.
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Rob C

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2011, 02:36:41 pm »

Hercules had a hell of a time (negative sense) with something similar.

What you are attempting to do is something that no well-experienced photographer of the old school (did his own developing and printing) would dream of touching for the reasons already pointed out: simply an infinity of variables, enough to render the attempt meaningless.

Have a nice holiday instead - it'll be cheaper and you'll still be sane at the end of it; assuming you're starting off sane, that is...

;-)

Rob C

Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2011, 02:52:51 pm »

I did think of this issue and while thinking about it I think there are two different ways to approach it. Each have their flaws but I have not decided which is better at this point.

The first choice, is to simply develop them in something that would be best for the majority of items being studied. I don't know what this is but recommendations would be accepted.

The second would be to develop each of them in a recommended developer, which again I would need helps with recommendations for the desired developers which then I could go about finding places to do this etc.....

The first would be the most scientifically correct in one sense because everything is being compared within the same developer and this is not a variable. Unfortunately then of course this has the argument that films will not be given their best chance of performing in the test if this happens.

I am ok with if the test takes a while to complete in terms of finding everything and having it happen as it should (e.g. proper developers for each film). I think this is the better solution because it allows each film to be given a "fighting" chance as it were. For this reason I would appreciate recommendations on developer for these different films. If someone could provide this or part of this I would be greatly appreciative. Thank you,
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2011, 05:31:37 pm »

Larry Dressler from Photo.net recommended "May I suggest Xtol or D-76 or HC-110" as possible developers, any thoughts on using one of these as a universal developer if we could use that route...
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photo570

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2011, 07:11:03 pm »

May I suggest ABC Pyro, especially if you are scanning. The stain increases negative contrast and masks grain at the same time. Perfect for scanning.

Jason.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 07:12:49 pm »

Thank you for that recommendation, does anyone else have any thoughts, I researched ABC Pyro and it looks pretty solid.
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Rob C

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2011, 04:58:31 am »

Larry Dressler from Photo.net recommended "May I suggest Xtol or D-76 or HC-110" as possible developers, any thoughts on using one of these as a universal developer if we could use that route...



If you are hell-bent on mental suicide, then fine. I'd suggest D76. I built my entire b/w career around it, using it with all my b/w stuff. But, the secret to retaining my sanity was this: I used a minimum range of b/w film: TXP120 for mf and HP3/4 and FP3/4 for 135. I didn't like Kodak b/w on 135. Same with colour: only Kodachrome 64 or Ektachrome 64, depending on whether I could get away with 35mm or had to go up to 6x6. If 6x6, it would invariably be the Ektachrome - I never got to using the Kodachrome on 120. I did buy some 135 Kodachrome 200 but still have most of it today, decades later...

The key was simplicity and learning what your stuff could give you in the situation in which you found yourself. I don't know a single pro who likes surprises in his chemistry set. Trouble is, if you want to start to play with very fine grain film, then you also need to go for different chemistry to take advantage of the emulsion characteristcs, which is where we came in, and I'd offer a prayer for an early exit!

As for labs: I seldom used them for anything other than giant blow-ups that I simply couldn't handle in my own darkroom. Other than its great ability to retain speed during long periods between exposure and development, Kodachrome, for me, kept itself out of 'commercial' labs and was hand-delivered to Kodak at Hemel or sent by post to Lausanne. The Swiss way was probably the better, but impractical on most shoots. Handing E6 and its predecessors to 'local' labs was a terrifying experience - I lost an entire stock shoot to one, and the best I could get was a return trip...

Rob C

Camdavidson

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2011, 06:28:55 am »

Their website doesn't mention processing services or how they do them, or am I just not seeing it? thanks.

http://www.dalmatianlab.com/digital/scan-services-pricing/

There is a pull down menu for many of their services.  (see above example.)  If you had a specific question that is not answered on the web site you could alwasy email or telephone them.

http://www.dalmatianlab.com/customer/contact-us/

They are a very good B&W lab that offers excellent quality processing, printing and scanning.  I used them for part of a project last year and was happy with the processing and initial scans.  I have also used Richards/Paris Lab in Los Angeles for similar services.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2011, 06:10:47 pm »

I was thinking about using this as the test subject. Obviously, its a still life with a controlled night source, if all of the pictures are taken at night, when there is no ambient light to speak of....thoughts? thanks.



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dr5chrome

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Re: B&W Films Available in 2011.......
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 01:34:38 pm »

We have had "all" films listed in our film-review for years - http://dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/filmreviewdev1.html for the dr5 process - All films in '1' process that respond differently as a positive..

As well, for 'negs' any lab worth it's salt should process the B&W films per client request or use the best developer for that film. It cost more to run film in this manner but it's the only right way to do it. http://www.bwneg.com/developers.html

regards - dw
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