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Author Topic: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900  (Read 7471 times)

dtsiapas

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Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« on: November 29, 2011, 07:33:18 am »

What paper thickness and platen gap would you recommend on using with Leonardo Canvas (390gsm) and Epson 7900-9900?

Are there any other recommendations you would like to make?
I received the roll earlier than I expected and in the afternoon I will be making my first sample prints :)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 07:56:15 am by dtsiapas »
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Paul2660

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 09:56:41 am »

I would consider a platen gap of "widest"

I generally don't set the paper thickness, instead rely on the "paper type" to determine this.

For matte canvas I still use a paper type of "water color radiant white" as all of my profiles were generated
with that setting. 

The 7900/9900 have a "canvas" paper setting, and others have reported that this automatically increases the paper feed
adjustment to +70 (to help reduce the canvas length errors), however on my printer when I select canvas no change is
made to the feed adjustment.

There is a difference in the amount of ink laid down between paper settings of "canvas" and "watercolor radiant white".  I know
this because I have printed with both and the prints don't come out the same.   Since this means I would have to create new
profiles with the "canvas'" setting, I have stayed with WCRW for matte canvas.

Paul Caldwell
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 12:13:15 am »

The most important thing the paper choice sets is the ink load. Often a setting to achieve maximum ink load without running or puddling is desirable, thus you see many using watercolor radiant white when printing 3rd party canvases instead of canvas.

The platen gap isn't as critical as the thickness setting. The thickness setting when using a paper other than the specific one in the media type isn't always ideal and should be based on the media specifications as supplied by the manufacturer ... do not depend on the media choice getting it right.  for example, WCRW sets the thickness to .3mm but the canvas in the original post is .48mm so that setting should be moved to .5mm.  If you see smearing from the head moving, then widening the platen gap may help that.

Technically you should use the same setting as was used to create the profile ... I was surprised to find no mention of this on the hahneumuhle site and they only provide  a "generic" handling instructions for profiles which refers to using Epson Premium Luster.  Sort of lame ... they should tell you exactly what media type was selected, as well as any other conditions that were changed so you can be perfectly duplicate those.  there should be a separate data sheet for each profile.  Otherwise the profile is invalid.  Hard to believe they used premium luster which is the only media type mentioned in their instructions.

If it were me, I'd try WCRW as the media, .5mm as the thickness, and you may find you need to change the advance to allow for shrinkage but that should be tested, as it varies greatly with different canvases.
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HFA_Ashleigh

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 11:14:45 am »

Hello-

Hahnemühle has streamlined the media types for efficiency. For each printer all the MK papers will have the same media type and all the PK papers will have the same media type. For example with your Epson printer, all matte papers are recommend to use the Velvet Fine Art Paper as the media setting and all glossy papers are recommended to use Premium Luster Photo Paper. These are the media types that the profiles were built with. I understand your confusion about the handling instructions appearing to be a 'generic' document, but they are indeed correct and specific to each paper/ printer/ profile combination.

Also, I would not recommend using WCRW for the Leonardo Canvas. This canvas is a PK/ Glossy canvas and WCRW is a MK media type. To get the best results with this glossy canvas I recommend using PK ink and the Premium Luster setting. For the thickness I agree about moving it to .5mm. If you see any print head touches (scratching/ lines on print) or printhead strikes (ink marks on the print edges) step up the platen gap until the problem is eliminated.

Best,

Ashleigh

Hahnemühle USA Tech Support
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Paul2660

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 11:53:42 am »

Not being aware of the Hahneumehle Leonardo being a glossy, I recommend the WCRW setting which is standard for most
matte canvas.  However the tech support answer seems like a good place to starts and Kudos for Hahnemuehle for reading
the forum and giving feedback. 

I have learned that glossy canvas is  very very dependent on Paper type as that setting determines the amount of ink laid down.
Every manufacturer seems to default to Premium Luster 260W or Premium Glossy 250W.  These two paper setting also lay down
the heaviest amount of ink IMO.  So with canvas you have to be careful you don't get pooling of ink. 

With other brands, I have had to back off or proofing paper publication and still reduce the ink density somewhat to keep from
getting pooling. 

Paul Caldwell
 
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 04:43:06 pm »

While I appreciate support from the supplier, it does leave me a little puzzled.

To assume that every coated surface designed for PK ink can handle the ink load of Epson Premium Luster to me seems a stretch.  The statement that the WCRW media setting is "designed" for MK inks also implies a lack of understanding of exactly what those media settings control.  In fact, while WCRW paper itself is a MK media, the setting in the driver itself allows for use of either PK or MK ink. There is no issue using WCRW and PK ink for a 3rd party paper as long as those were the settings used when the profile was created.  Whether this would give a more optimum ink load I'm not sure, but most manufacturers seem to believe it does.

But if the profile was made with Epson Premium Luster, that's the choice that should be used. Unfortunately I believe the "streamlined" media settings are still an issue, because the paper thickness should still be changed to .5mm and somewhere end users should be made aware of that fact.
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dtsiapas

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 12:18:33 pm »

The first samples I made on Leonardo were on Premium Luster media and with the platen gap set to wide. As far I remember I had the paper thickness set to 0.2 or 0.3 (as a starting point).

Having heard so many horror stories about canvas printing I was reluctant about the outcome but the first samples were absolutely brilliant.


As far as I know the paper thickness setting has to do with the depth from the surface of the media that the ink will invade. I don't know whether a greater paper thickness will give me even better results, but I will give it a try as everyone seems to suggest.

Farmer

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 09:53:07 pm »

Paper thickness has nothing to do with how much ink is put down or how far it will "invade" the paper.  It's to do with handling the media through the paper path as different thicknesses will change distance the surface feeds.
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Phil Brown

Wayne Fox

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 11:03:37 pm »

I believe the paper thickness function really has to do with moving the print head assembly to allow more or less room through the paper path.  This sounds similar to platen gap, but platen gap is more about mechanics that control the paper through the path.

So increasing the paper thickness literally moves the print head itself further. The print head itself is designed with a specific distance in mind ... how far the ink dot is expected to travel from the nozzle to the surface of the paper, and as long as you set the thickness based on the actual physical thickness of the paper, that expectation is maintained.

If you don't allow enough room you can easily get head strikes, and you can also get ink build up on the head, leading to more clogging.  It is doubtful that even with a loop you will see any difference between a .3 and .5mm setting but it is still advisable to set the correct thickness based on the actual dimension of the paper.
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dtsiapas

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 02:53:28 am »

I believe the paper thickness function really has to do with moving the print head assembly to allow more or less room through the paper path.  This sounds similar to platen gap, but platen gap is more about mechanics that control the paper through the path.

So increasing the paper thickness literally moves the print head itself further. The print head itself is designed with a specific distance in mind ... how far the ink dot is expected to travel from the nozzle to the surface of the paper, and as long as you set the thickness based on the actual physical thickness of the paper, that expectation is maintained.

If you don't allow enough room you can easily get head strikes, and you can also get ink build up on the head, leading to more clogging.  It is doubtful that even with a loop you will see any difference between a .3 and .5mm setting but it is still advisable to set the correct thickness based on the actual dimension of the paper.

This sounds reasonable.

Thanks Wayne

Farmer

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 04:06:46 am »

Thickness has to do with the radial movement through the paper path - thicker paper moves further per "turn", if you like, because it's a larger diameter - this affects things such as banding.  Even cut sheet isn't moved through perfectly straight, so this comes into play.
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Phil Brown

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 09:35:21 am »

Thickness has to do with the radial movement through the paper path - thicker paper moves further per "turn", if you like, because it's a larger diameter - this affects things such as banding.  Even cut sheet isn't moved through perfectly straight, so this comes into play.

With the same wheels a higher car would not move faster than a lower car. I doubt your explanation is correct. It is more likely the result of differences in friction on the transport axle, pinch wheels suspension is applying more pressure when thicker medium is inserted between the pinch wheels and the axle. If there is no compensation done on that pressure.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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fetish

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 10:34:57 am »

Thickness has to do with the radial movement through the paper path - thicker paper moves further per "turn", if you like, because it's a larger diameter - this affects things such as banding.  Even cut sheet isn't moved through perfectly straight, so this comes into play.

thickness affects the physical height of the head, as well as bi-directional timings. if you're using uni directional (aka low speed printing), thickness does not come into play, you avoid headstrikes via platen gap adjustment.

horizontal banding is affected by the feed, as discussed in most canvas threads. if you're getting dark banding, you need to increase the feed amount. if you get white banding, you decrease. but on most canvas it's safe to put that setting at 50 points (.5%) for the canvas print length to be produced properly instead of always falling short of the actual image size.
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Farmer

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 09:10:28 pm »

With the same wheels a higher car would not move faster than a lower car. I doubt your explanation is correct. It is more likely the result of differences in friction on the transport axle, pinch wheels suspension is applying more pressure when thicker medium is inserted between the pinch wheels and the axle. If there is no compensation done on that pressure.

If you put thicker tyres on the same wheel, at a given RPM for the engine in the same gear, you will go faster.

So, doubt all you like, but it's true :-)
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Phil Brown

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 02:06:27 am »

With the same wheels a higher car would not move faster than a lower car. I doubt your explanation is correct. It is more likely the result of differences in friction on the transport axle, pinch wheels suspension is applying more pressure when thicker medium is inserted between the pinch wheels and the axle. If there is no compensation done on that pressure.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

I think the point would be if you put larger wheels on a car, the effect would be it moves faster.  It also makes the car higher but that's a secondary effect.

However, I'm not sure that's how the mechanism inside an Epson printer actually works.  Seems it's more like pinching an object between two tires and then rotating them to move the paper. Changing the thickness of the paper won't have any affect on the distance or speed traveled.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Hahnemuehle Leonardo Canvas on Epson 7900-9900
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 03:30:33 am »

If you put thicker tyres on the same wheel, at a given RPM for the engine in the same gear, you will go faster.

So, doubt all you like, but it's true :-)

True but you did not put a thicker transport axle on the printer, only the transported media changes in thickness. At the friction point between media and axle no dimension or rotational speed has changed. The car analogy I used is correct.

I am not arguing the fact that something happens to media transport with different weights, structures and textures but it isn't a change in circumference speed of the transport axle. I think there is a change in the friction plus most likely the unrolling of the media from its own roll. It will be very difficult to design a spring pressure pinch wheel transport axle system that can compensate for that even if there is an active friction control on the media roll axle. So there has to be some kind of compensation on the axle speed. Either arbitrary per weight, based on print/measurement tests or on the fly. The last happens with the HP Z 6100 direct optical media texture movement sensor + servo function. Technology that also can be found in any optical computer mouse.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

330+ paper white spectral plots:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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