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Author Topic: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)  (Read 24571 times)

torger

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How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« on: November 27, 2011, 03:25:51 pm »

Here I'll explain one method to expose manually with the Canon 5D mark II when shooting fairly static scenes from a tripod, for example landscapes and architecture. It should also apply to other recent Canon models such as the 7D, all my tests have been performed on the 5D mark II though. I use this method myself.

The goal when exposing digitally is to gather as much light as possible without clipping important highlights, since more light means less noise and thus better image quality. This is sometimes referred to as "Expose To The Right" (ETTR), however the term can be quite confusing since the auto exposure function may in many situations choose to clip more highlights (expose more to the right) than you do when you expose manually. Anyway, the message is that one should concentrate on the highlights, the brighter one can make them the better exposed is the raw file. However, if you clip a highlight it is permanently lost -- digital is actually less forgiving than film -- while film will compress the highlights when nearing overexposure it is just clipped right off in digital (usually one channel at a time though). Carelessy executed ETTR technique leads to lost highlights, and therefore it has got a quite poor reputation despite that it is a perfectly valid concept.

Traditionally a light meter was used to measure incoming light and based on that suitable exposure parameters were set, but getting it right could be difficult and you could not see the result until back in the darkroom. In modern digital cameras with large LCDs (like the 5D mark II) the use of a light meter is rare, instead the auto exposure function is used as a starting point, a test picture is taken and verified in the review mode and adjustments are made accordingly. A quick loop of trial and error to tune the exposure parameters. To support this way to work the review mode provides tools to evaluate the exposure.

On the 5D mark II there is a histogram per channel (RGB histogram setting must be enabled), so you can see if any of the red, green or blue channels are clipped. Unfortunately the histograms are small and it is sometimes hard to see if there is clipping or just nearly so (I sometimes use a magnifying glass). Not only the small size makes it difficult, the histograms are dark grey on a black background so in strong light it can be hard to see where the histogram ends (clips). The other tool is highlight alert "blinkies" (not enabled per default), but the camera shows only the luminance channel (meaning that an individual channel may clip while luminance does not, so you still need to watch the histograms) and you cannot see the blinkies when zooming in.

The user interface for evaluating exposure could thus be better, and hopefully future camera models will show improvements. However, there is another problem that is much worse: the histograms and blinkies are based on the embedded JPEG and not on the raw data itself! The JPEG is embedded in the raw file in full resolution (but quite heavily compressed), it is this JPEG you see when inspecting and zooming the image in the review mode, so even if you shoot "raw only" you actually look at a JPEG. Obviously the camera user interface is intended for photographers that use JPEG directly out of the camera, and not for still life photographers that only shoot raw and aim for the best possible technical quality.

That the JPEG is shown in the review mode means that the histograms will not show the correct information, it may be similar to what this in the raw file but it may also differ significantly. So what to do? One approach is not to care, expose using the JPEG histograms in standard picture style and a white balance that looks good. This does work quite well -- with the standard settings the camera will make conservative JPEG renditions meaning that there is very little risk that the raw file will clip without the JPEG doing so. Instead there will be typically some headroom left, often around 2/3 stops, but sometimes much more. This approach will probably be good enough for 99% of anybody's pictures, but if you really want to you can apply some workarounds to make the histograms match the raw file a little bit better, or rather mismatch a bit less.

The first step is to assign "universal white balance" (uniwb) to the custom white balance. Make a long exposure with a wide open lens in a bright scene to make a 100% clipped picture (all white, all channels saturated on all pixels), then set custom white balance from that (ignore the warning). I know this trick works on 5D mark II and 7D, but may not work on all Canon cameras. If you have done it right, shooting a picture with this white balance will give the preview a green tint (see attached picture). This is the universal white balance, meaning that the RGB channels will have the same sensitivity relations as on the sensor, and since the green channel is the most sensitive, pictures will get a green tint. Unfortunately, this will not work perfectly because the maximum saturation for the channels is different on the sensor than what can be represented in the JPEG. It is a good idea to change colour space to AdobeRGB which is a bit closer to what the sensor has than the default and smaller sRGB.

Another problem is that the "picture style" setting leads to color transformations and dynamic range compression which further reduces the similarity with a true raw histogram. The least bad picture style is the "neutral", I prefer making a user-defined version of that with increased sharpening so I can more easily review sharpness too. Do not change the contrast or color settings. Some guides do recommend to reduce contrast to get a more linear histogram which in theory would match the raw file better (which is linear), but my tests showed that it is still non-linear and you also get a significant risk that the JPEG histogram will not clip when the raw file actually does. The default contrast setting seems to be the best.

So let us summarise the settings:

- Enable RGB histograms
- Enable highlight alert ("blinkies")
- Assign uniwb to custom white balance
- Set the colour space to AdobeRGB
- Set the picture style to "Neutral" (leave contrast, saturation and colour tone at default)

Now we have histograms and blinkies that are as close as possible to show clipping as in the actual raw data. Unfortunately, there may still be mismatches in some situations. A worst case is a scene with a strong colour component causing say green and blue channels be at almost equal levels, the JPEG may then "clip" without green or blue going up to maximum value, and thus no clipping in histograms despite clipping in the raw file. The best cases seem to be when the green channel is clearly ahead of both red and blue, which fortunately is almost always the case due to the more sensitive green channel.

I usually switch to universal white balance when tuning the exposure, and then switch back to a natural-looking white balance when taking the final exposure (switching white balance is quick on cameras with dedicated white balance button). In many cases it will be an overly bright JPEG with some clipping, but I prefer that as embedded JPEG rather than a green one.

If uncertain about when clipping occurs there is a safe method: instead of adjusting the exposure to just below clipping, adjust to one stop down (the first vertical line below clipping in the histogram). If the histogram was perfectly linear there would be one stop headroom in the raw file, but since JPEGs are dynamically compressed by the camera in varying degrees depending on image content the actual headroom is (according to my tests) one to two stops. More specifically, at least one stop and at most two stops, a typical headroom seems to be 1 1/3. This means that when increasing one stop from that starting point the exposure is safe, and probably only 1/3 to 2/3 stops underexposed. This is a good base exposure.

Only go for those last fractions of a stop if you really need it. Doing it every time just leads to occasional overexposures you will regret and very rarely visible quality gain in the pictures. A typical example when it may be worthwhile though is a landscape scene with a bright sky where you know that you will push the shadows in postprocessing, a scene when you would use a graduated filter if shooting on film. Fortunately those scenes often have a strong green component (as seen by the camera) making clipping indications in the histograms more reliable.

What about tiny highlights? Some highlights are so small that they do not show up in the histograms, and thus you will not see if you clip them. There is no good workaround for this, but fortunately clipping those is often exactly what you want to do, often too bright to keep anyway and too small to be meaningful. If I have many of those small highlights, I use the "safe method" described above and thus leave a little bit of headroom to keep a little bit more around those highlights.

What about larger bright highlights outside reasonable range, such as the sun? You will then have to clip, and since the highlight is large it will show up in the histogram making it more difficult to see if you clip other highlights that you want to keep. Again, aiming at one stop down and raise one stop from there can make it easier to read the histograms, since the highlights are more separated.

If the situation allows and you feel you are risking overexposure don't be afraid to bracket, especially in cases when you have to clip parts of the picture. Sometimes you need the raw converter to be able to see what is the optimal amount of clipping, and you might choose to go HDR.

What about intentional clipping of one or two channels (but not the last), and reconstruct in post-processing? If at least one channel is unclipped, a fairly good rendition of the highlight can usually be made by the raw converter. White clouds for example can do really well with only one channel left. However, the JPEG histograms are not precise enough to make these kind of decisions, when clipping occurs you start see the camera's own highlight reconstruction in the histograms so the similarity with the true raw histogram is strongly reduced. If you by some reason still want to do this, make a precise ETTR exposure and bracket in 1/3 stops up to about +1 stop from there.

What about long exposures? Tuning exposure when having to wait a minute or so per test shot is tedious. The trick there is to increase ISO and open the lens wide, tune with those settings and then increase shutter speed accordingly at target ISO and f/stop. So if you got 1/4 sec at ISO3200 and f/2.8 and want to shoot at f/8 and ISO100 that is 3 stops aperture and 5 stops ISO, 8 stops total meaning 64 seconds. Be aware that vignetting at wide apertures and high ISO can reduce reliability in this method. I don't aim to get the last fraction of a stop in long exposures.

What if you cannot shoot at base ISO, you need to increase it to make shutter speed shorter (moving objects, windy conditions etc)? The whole ETTR concept then becomes meaningless, just set the shutter speed you need and increase ISO until you have a reasonable exposure. Open up the aperture if you can and your DOF intention allows. The difference of say ISO3200 near clipping and ISO1600 one stop underexposed (raised in postprocessing) is minimal so aim for a safe exposure.

A note about the 7D: the 7D has (unlike the 5D mark II) live view histograms which can be helpful as a starting point, but it seems that these are less predictable than the JPEG histograms, so I still prefer to use them.)
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 05:31:43 pm »

Hi torger,

thank you for a good summary on exposing.

Graystar

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 09:47:54 pm »

That's way too much work for me.  I'd rather be like the Formula 1 driver, who has such an intimate relationship with his car that he knows exactly how the car will react to conditions and input.

For example, If I want to give some clouds as much exposure as possible, I don't need histograms or any wacky white balance settings.  A little experimentation has taught me that if I spot meter the brightest highlight and increase exposure by 2.5 EV, I can be sure that the exposure of the metered highlight is as high as possible without clipping (for my particular camera, the Nikon D90.)  I also work only in auto modes, as I find manual mode doesn't buy me anything but more work.  I spot meter the highlights, press AE Lock, and I'm done with exposure.  Some camera's, like Canon, make it difficult to get multiple exposures from a single AE Lock so I can understand why manual mode may be preferred with such cameras.

Though what I described is not really ETTR, as the scene may end up underexposed to accommodate the exposure of the highlights.  Frankly I don't find ETTR useful.  As you say, it's only good at base ISO.  I don't know what's wrong with those cameras that produced such dramatic differences based on ISO only, but with my D90 (which is a three-year old camera now) there's no difference in noise levels between ISO 200, +3 EV images and ISO 1600 images taken with the same aperture and shutter.  Also, I don't know what kind of scenes people are photographing that can be overexposed by two or three stops (perhaps they take pics of black cats on coal piles all day,) but I rarely find a scene that can be overexposed by more than one stop before clipping some highlight somewhere in the scene.  And on my D90, a one stop difference in light at base ISO is only visible in the shadows at 100% view on the screen.  On an 8x10 print it's invisible, and at 11x14 visibility is questionable.

My D90 actually has ETTR built in...in the form of expanded ISO.  Base ISO is 200 but I have an "L1.0" which really does nothing but overexpose the scene by one stop and remap the raw data.  I actually use the expanded ISO when I know I've got the highlight room because, like everyone else, I want the best exposure possible, and the exposure adjustment is done for me by the camera.
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torger

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 02:07:22 am »

That's way too much work for me.

Using the spot-meter as guide sounds interesting.

I work with primes (often tilt-shift) and tripod, meaning that the workflow is quite slow overall. Tuning the exposure takes about 10 - 15 seconds, which means it does not make things much worse for me :-). Most of the time one does not gain much compared to simpler methods, the reason why I do like this is that I find it quick enough and I don't need to have any doubt that the exposure is good.

When I shoot hand-held or action I use auto-exposure matrix metering and hope for the best :-).
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fdisilvestro

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 06:31:50 am »

Quote
What if you cannot shoot at base ISO, you need to increase it to make shutter speed shorter (moving objects, windy conditions etc)? The whole ETTR concept then becomes meaningless

Not necessarily, it depends on the camera (sensor) read noise or how the DR changes as ISO increase. For some cameras, the DR does not vary much from base ISO up to 2 or 3 stops (the Canon 5D MkII is one example), so it may make sense to use ETTR above base ISO. In the specific case of the 5D MKII, I would say it makes sense up to ISO 400 (or even ISO 800).

There are other cameras like the Nikon D7000 or Pentax K5, where DR decreases as soon as ISO increase, where ETTR makes sense only at base ISO.

The data for most cameras is available at DxOMark. Look for your camera and then check the "Dynamic Range" tab

torger

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 07:04:36 am »

Not necessarily, it depends on the camera (sensor) read noise or how the DR changes as ISO increase. For some cameras, the DR does not vary much from base ISO up to 2 or 3 stops (the Canon 5D MkII is one example), so it may make sense to use ETTR above base ISO. In the specific case of the 5D MKII, I would say it makes sense up to ISO 400 (or even ISO 800).

There are other cameras like the Nikon D7000 or Pentax K5, where DR decreases as soon as ISO increase, where ETTR makes sense only at base ISO.

The data for most cameras is available at DxOMark. Look for your camera and then check the "Dynamic Range" tab

Problem is ETTR = use as long shutter speed as possible, and when you increase ISO you do so to keep down shutter speed, so the ETTR concept is crippled on the main parameter. However there can as you say be some benefit to choose some ISO rather than another depending on how the particular camera behaves. I have not myself investigated this in detail since I rarely shoot at other than base ISO when on a tripod, and is usually less caring about optimal image quality when I can't use base ISO anyway.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 08:40:14 am »

ETTR is about maximizing signal to noise ratio which is also maximizing DR. As a concept, it does not require longer shutter speeds. As an example, in a studio you could just increase lighting.

RFPhotography

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 01:03:39 pm »

Not necessarily, it depends on the camera (sensor) read noise or how the DR changes as ISO increase. For some cameras, the DR does not vary much from base ISO up to 2 or 3 stops (the Canon 5D MkII is one example), so it may make sense to use ETTR above base ISO. In the specific case of the 5D MKII, I would say it makes sense up to ISO 400 (or even ISO 800).

There are other cameras like the Nikon D7000 or Pentax K5, where DR decreases as soon as ISO increase, where ETTR makes sense only at base ISO.

The data for most cameras is available at DxOMark. Look for your camera and then check the "Dynamic Range" tab

For the sake of clarity, what one would look at is the dropoff in DR compared with the increase in ISO, yes?  And if the droppoff in DR is less than 1 stop for a given 1 stop increase in ISO, then ETTR above base ISO would still hold?

As far as auto-exposure being the way to determine exposure, I think knowing how to use a light meter is a better approach.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 01:13:16 pm by BobFisher »
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Bryan Conner

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 01:50:01 pm »

ETTR is about maximizing signal to noise ratio which is also maximizing DR. As a concept, it does not require longer shutter speeds. As an example, in a studio you could just increase lighting.

Extremely good point!
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fdisilvestro

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 02:28:57 pm »

For the sake of clarity, what one would look at is the dropoff in DR compared with the increase in ISO, yes?  And if the droppoff in DR is less than 1 stop for a given 1 stop increase in ISO, then ETTR above base ISO would still hold?


Yes, that is the point.

madmanchan

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 04:11:12 pm »

Yes, spot-metering on the 5D II can be a reasonably good guide for ETTR.  You have a little over 3 stops of headroom in the raw data.  So, you spot meter the brightest area in the scene you don't want to clip, then open up ~3 stops. 
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Eric Chan

Graystar

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 05:26:46 pm »

For the sake of clarity, what one would look at is the dropoff in DR compared with the increase in ISO, yes?  And if the droppoff in DR is less than 1 stop for a given 1 stop increase in ISO, then ETTR above base ISO would still hold?
ETTR is all about gathering more light.  When you increase ISO you gather less light.  If you can overexpose an ISO 800 shot by one stop, then you can overexpose an ISO 400 shot by one stop, and so on for ISO 200 and ISO 100 shots.  In each case, you'd double the light gathered, and that's what reduces noise.  If you have a shutter speed restriction due to the circumstances of the scene and you can't open your aperture, then that places a limit on the amount of light you can gather.  In that case you just have to make do with the light you get...it doesn't really matter what ISO you shoot at (unless, of course, you have one of those cameras that seems to have read noise that's larger than the signal!) On my Nikon D90, if can't collect any more light because I'm restricted to a minimum shutter speed and can't open the aperture any further, then ISO 200 images look exactly the same as ISO 1600 images after exposure is normalized.

Quote from: BobFisher
As far as auto-exposure being the way to determine exposure, I think knowing how to use a light meter is a better approach.
There's no difference.  Use of automatic exposure doesn't save anyone from having to understand exposure to control his camera.  It is knowledge that gets you the right exposure...not what mode you're in.

Use of an incident light meter can avoid having to adjust exposure for the tone of the subject...since exposure is set directly from the light.  But that can also be done with a camera using an ExpoDisc, which turns the camera's meter into an incident meter, or a gray card (which I carry in my pocket to set white balance and exposure.)
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fdisilvestro

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 06:59:32 pm »

it doesn't really matter what ISO you shoot at (unless, of course, you have one of those cameras that seems to have read noise that's larger than the signal!)

In some cameras, actually a lot of current cameras, it does matter at what ISO you shoot. It is because the read noise being higher than shot noise (not the signal)

The first graph is the DxOMark plot of the DR vs ISO for the Canon 5D MKII. The first three points starting from the left, are ISO 100, 200 & 400. The corresponding DR (print) are 11.86; 11.82 & 11.62. So, there is not even 1/3 of a stop difference in DR going from ISO 100 to ISO 400.

What does it means? Well, in that specific camera, it does makes sense to ETTR at ISO 400, even if you are not gathering all the light that its sensor can handle. Remember the important value is Signal to noise ratio, not the noise itself.

The second graph is also a DxOMark plot of the DR vs ISO for the Pentax K5. Now the first three points are for ISO 80, ISO 100 & ISO 200. Look at how the DR decreases in a linear fashion with corresponding values of 14.12; 13.7 & 12.82. This is approximately 1 stop less DR for every doubling of ISO. In this camera, ETTR makes sense only at base ISO
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:01:07 pm by FranciscoDisilvestro »
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RFPhotography

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 10:56:46 pm »

ETTR is all about gathering more light.  When you increase ISO you gather less light.  If you can overexpose an ISO 800 shot by one stop, then you can overexpose an ISO 400 shot by one stop, and so on for ISO 200 and ISO 100 shots.  In each case, you'd double the light gathered, and that's what reduces noise.  If you have a shutter speed restriction due to the circumstances of the scene and you can't open your aperture, then that places a limit on the amount of light you can gather.  In that case you just have to make do with the light you get...it doesn't really matter what ISO you shoot at (unless, of course, you have one of those cameras that seems to have read noise that's larger than the signal!) On my Nikon D90, if can't collect any more light because I'm restricted to a minimum shutter speed and can't open the aperture any further, then ISO 200 images look exactly the same as ISO 1600 images after exposure is normalized.

Except that as Francisco points out not all cameras lose DR in the same fashion with an increase in ISO.  In cameras like the K5 or D7000 I'd expect the result of an ETTR at a higher ISO to be the same, from a noise standpoint, as a normal exposure at a lower ISO.  I'd expect the findings outlined on the Chromasoft site to hold true.  You get the same result by increasing an ISO 800 shot by 1 stop as you do by shooting at ISO 400 with a 'normal' exposure.  In that case the light captured by the two shots is the same.  If you can ETTR the ISO 800 shot by 2 stops (you have that much headroom) then you can get the same result from a 'normal' exposure at ISO 200.

Quote
There's no difference.  Use of automatic exposure doesn't save anyone from having to understand exposure to control his camera.  It is knowledge that gets you the right exposure...not what mode you're in.

Use of an incident light meter can avoid having to adjust exposure for the tone of the subject...since exposure is set directly from the light.  But that can also be done with a camera using an ExpoDisc, which turns the camera's meter into an incident meter, or a gray card (which I carry in my pocket to set white balance and exposure.)

I think the use of a light meter requires a better understanding of the relationship between the components of exposure than does just fiddling around with an image on the camera LCD till there are no blinking highlights or the histo isn't bunched up against the right edge.  The latter can be done by simply turning dials till the right result is achieved.  No knowledge necessary.  Turn the dial one way, the histo goes the wrong way, OK, turn it back the other way.  No real understanding of exposure necessary. 
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Graystar

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 12:13:42 am »

Except that as Francisco points out not all cameras lose DR in the same fashion with an increase in ISO.

That doesn’t matter.  The 5DMII may not lose much DR in those first few steps of ISO, but DXOMark shows that SNR drops at a linear rate, and this is observable in images.  There’s a clear difference in shadow noise between ISO 100 and ISO 400 images from a 5DMII.  So it never make sense to ETTR at ISO 400 if your circumstance provides the exposure leeway to ETTR at ISO 100 or 200 for an improved SNR.

The 5DMII, like my Nikon D90, has ETTR built in, in the form of expanded ISO.  You can shoot at ISO 50 and that gives you an automatic ETTR of one stop, and it does so without needing large exposure corrections in post.


Quote from: BobFisher
I think the use of a light meter requires a better understanding of the relationship between the components of exposure than does just fiddling around with an image on the camera LCD till there are no blinking highlights or the histo isn't bunched up against the right edge.  The latter can be done by simply turning dials till the right result is achieved.  No knowledge necessary.  Turn the dial one way, the histo goes the wrong way, OK, turn it back the other way.  No real understanding of exposure necessary. 

You're right that chimping until one is happy with the LCD (or as I call it, the trial & error exposure method) is not understanding exposure.  However, there's little difference between the operation of a handheld light meter and the meter built into the camera, and both require the same exact knowledge to use effectively.  The camera's auto modes (and associated functionality) simply makes the application of that knowledge easier and faster.
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Fine_Art

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 01:40:13 am »

I don't see the point in all the complexity associated with an electronic matrix meter. You should rotate a dial for 0 to 10% clipping (highlights). It should automatically ETTR using your setting. The shot should then be processed to output a neutral EV. The camera should always record the raw. If you want JPGs the camera should let you reprocess them as you like later.

JPG should be 16bit JPG2000.
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torger

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 02:34:44 am »

In some cameras, actually a lot of current cameras, it does matter at what ISO you shoot. It is because the read noise being higher than shot noise (not the signal)

Dxomark dynamic range diagrams does not say that much. It is engineering DR (noise equal to signal) not "photographic useful DR" or how linear the noise is over the range. I e it is not showing dynamic range as a photographer refers to it. If you must use diagrams, look at SNR 18% tab instead. ISO400 is more noisy than ISO100 even for 5Dmk2. Not a whole lot, but more than 1/3 stop. The SNR 18% measurement show a little less than 2 stop difference, you also see reduction in tonal range and color sensitivity.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:21:11 am by torger »
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torger

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 02:51:28 am »

I see not difference between "understanding exposure" using a light meter or using histograms. Trial and error (usually 1-2 tries) is due to poor light metering tools not to poor understanding. There is no spot meter in live view, that would be great to have and probably simple to implement, but Japanese camera manufacturers seems to be very conservative when it comes to adding these type of features. Having the camera mounted on a tripod framed and ready is not ideal for moving the camera around just to point the spot meter I think, and an external spot meter costs money and gives you more gear to carry.

Using histograms you still need to understand how digital exposure works, how your particular camera's tools works, and you need to make decisions of what to clip and how much. Know when to play it safe and when you need the extra fractions of a stop. Being quick when you have to. Etc.

The romantic view of understanding exposure I guess is setting the correct parameters first try based on experience and intuition not even using a light meter, take one shot only and never look at the display. In the film days people were forced to do such things, now when the tools have improved the risk of mistakes is smaller and the need of experience to make technically good exposures has been reduced. I think that is a good thing. Less worries about the technical, faster learning curve, and if you want to more focus on the artistic aspects of photography :-).
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 09:25:23 am by torger »
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fdisilvestro

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 01:02:06 pm »

Dxomark dynamic range diagrams does not say that much. It is engineering DR (noise equal to signal) not "photographic useful DR" or how linear the noise is over the range. I e it is not showing dynamic range as a photographer refers to it. If you must use diagrams, look at SNR 18% tab instead. ISO400 is more noisy than ISO100 even for 5Dmk2. Not a whole lot, but more than 1/3 stop. The SNR 18% measurement show a little less than 2 stop difference, you also see reduction in tonal range and color sensitivity.

I agree that the DR from DxOMark is based on SNR=1 (signal equal to noise) and that is not completely useful photographically speaking. In order to define a "photographic useful DR" you have to choose an acceptable SNR, since there is no standard or absolute value. The graph to use from DxOMark should be Full SNR instead of SNR 18%. There is a very good explanation in this thread

Quote
There’s a clear difference in shadow noise between ISO 100 and ISO 400 images from a 5DMII.  So it never make sense to ETTR at ISO 400 if your circumstance provides the exposure leeway to ETTR at ISO 100 or 200 for an improved SNR

Agreed, I'm not saying to ETTR at ISO 400 if you can ETTR at ISO 100 or 200, my point was that due to the noise characteristics of that camera, it might make sense to ETTR at ISO 400 if you need the increased sensitivity. This will also depend on your acceptable minimum SNR.

Attached is the Full SNR graph for the 5D MKII. If your acceptable minimum SNR is 24db (equivalent to a signal 16 times the noise), then there is about 1/2 stop of difference in DR from ISO 100 to ISO 200 and another stop from ISO 200 to ISO 400, so it makes sense to ETTR only at ISO 100. If instead your acceptable minimum SNR is 12 db (equivalent to a signal 4 times the noise), then there is little difference between ISO 100 and ISO 200 and about 1/2 stop less DR at ISO 400. In this case, it might make sense to ETTR at ISO 400, again, if you need the extra speed.

RFPhotography

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Re: How to expose manually with Canon 5D mark II (and others)
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 01:54:35 pm »

Graystar, how do you reconcile GL's results showing reduced noise at higher ISO?  I understand torger is referring to using his 5D Mk II.  But there are a lot of other cameras on the market that may perform differently. 

torger, I'm not suggesting some romanticised version of determining exposure.  I'm also not suggesting that you don't understand.  I'm suggesting that recommending a method that can be used without a fair level of understanding isn't the best approach.
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